George Mueller (Mueller) Senior Member Username: Mueller Post Number: 1071 Registered: 11-2012	Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 3:06 pm:       Brett, to make it easier for you, here is Article Four of the Augsburg Confession. I have put into bold type what justifying faith believes. Perhaps this will help you understand. Our churches also teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works but are freely justified for Christ’s sake through faith when they believe thatthey are received into favor and that their sins are forgiven on account of Christ, who by his death made satisfaction for our sins. This faith God imputes for righteousness in his sight (Rom. 3-4). Do you see, Brett? Faith believes that he is received into favor and that his sins are forgiven on account of Christ, who by his death made satisfaction for his sins. This is what we Lutherans teach. Please notice how faith in the favor of God, faith in the forgiveness of sins, faith in Christ, faith in Christ’s death, and faith that Christ’s death has made satisfaction for one’s sins is the same faith. It isn’t a matter of believing in the forgiveness of sins or of believing in Christ. One doesn’t believe in one or the other or one before the other but in both at the same time. Please respond to what I am pointing out to you from the Augsburg Confession. Is it not perfectly obvious that the object of justifying faith is the favor of God and the forgiveness of sins and that this forgiveness is a present reality that faith grasps? ". . . their sins are forgiven on account of Christ, who by his death made satisfaction for our sins." ARE FORGIVEN, Brett. Not will be when we believe. Is this not what the words plainly say and mean? Isn't this what we are to believe and through such faith be justified?
Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 121 Registered: 1-2008	Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 12:52 am:       Mr. Peter Prange states, “Their very unbelief will be the basis of the divine judgment that comes on them, not God's lack of having forgiven them in Christ Jesus.” This is another UOJ teaching which winds up feeding on itself. What do I mean? UOJ teaches that God forgave the whole unbelieving world in Christ (Jesus Canceled their Debt) among those sins that Jesus forgave the unbelieving world was the sin of unbelief. No, it’s not the unforgiveable sin as the Lutheran Synods falsely claim. Romans 11:23, “And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.” So then unbelief is a sin that Christ died and paid for. And since UOJ teaches God forgave all sins in Christ then what you are effectively teaching is, “That unless unbelievers believe that God forgave them all sins, including the sin of unbelief, unbelievers will go to Hell for eternity for not believing God forgave them for not believing.” I’m correct in that statement about what UOJ is teaching. UOJ makes equally circular and contradictory statements such as the statement from Joe Krohn, “God has wrath for no man / God has wrath for unbelievers.” Mr. Prange goes on to teach in harmony with the doctrine of UOJ, “If God has not forgiven unbelievers, upon what basis can he judge their unbelief? They would be failing to believe something that wasn't real and true because they hadn't believed it! “ Mr. Prange I believe your statement makes God’s Word subject to the limitations of your human experience and is consistent with the type of theology that has spawned the doctrine of UOJ. Scripture contends against this false dichotomy that UOJ teaches when God declares in John 16:8-9, “And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me;” Note that it doesn’t state, ‘because they believe not that they were forgiven already’ but it states, “because they believe not on me” on Christ. The false dichotomy is that UOJ sets up the false declaration that the whole world is forgiven all sin (their sins have been canceled, debt removed, the unbelieving world has been absolved) and UOJ argues that if that declaration isn’t true then there’s nothing to believe in – so the declaration has to be true. There is no such declaration taught in Scripture or explained in the Lutheran Confessions. UOJ’s faith clings to a false declaration – no wonder you teach an individual should not look to his faith for comfort – your faith is in a false object that never occurred and not in Christ alone. No wonder UOJists find no comfort from faith for they do not have the faith of the Holy Spirit who teaches in 2 Corinthians 13:5, “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?” Mr. Mueller, we are at an impasse. You defend UOJ’s teaching that God has in fact declared the whole unbelieving world absolved, justified and righteous in Christ before faith – even if they never have faith in Christ. I believe and confess in accord with Scripture and harmony with the Lutheran Confessions that God has promised to be reconciled to, absolve, justify, declare righteous, adopt as children and save eternally all those who by the gracious gift of faith trust in Christ alone. You deny the doctrine of UOJ teaches a false object of faith by quoting the BOC here, “(men) are freely justified for Christ’s sake through faith when they believe that they are received into favor and that their sins are forgiven on account of Christ”. You teach that forgiveness must come before faith but the BOC is speaking of the result of faith in Christ alone “through faith” which is believing that they are received into favor and their sins are forgiven. The BOC confirms my confession here (note specifically 113]): The wrath of God cannot be appeased if we set against it our own works, because Christ has been set forth as a Propitiator, so that for His sake,the Father may become reconciled to us. But Christ is not apprehended as a Mediator except by faith. Therefore, by faith alone we obtain remission of sins, when we comfort our hearts with confidence in the mercy promised for 81] Christ's sake. Likewise Paul, Rom. 5:2, says: By whom also we have access, and adds, by faith. Thus, therefore, we are reconciled to the Father, and receive remission of sins when we are comforted with confidence in the mercy promised for Christ's sake… Paul on the contrary, teaches that we have access, i.e., reconciliation, through Christ. And to show how this occurs, he adds that we have access by faith. By faith, therefore, for Christ's sake, we receive remission of sins. We cannot set our own love and our own works over against God's wrath. 86] But since we receive remission of sins and the Holy Ghost by faith alone, faith alone justifies, because those reconciled are accounted righteous and children of God, not on account of their own purity, but through mercy for Christ's sake, provided only they by faith apprehend this mercy. Accordingly, Scripture testifies that by faith we are accounted righteous, Rom. 3:26. We, therefore, will add testimonies which clearly declare that faith is that very righteousness by which we are accounted righteous before God, namely, not because it is a work that is in itself worthy, but because it receives the promise by which God has promised that for Christ's sake He wishes to be propitious to those believing in Him, or because He knows that Christ of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption, 1 Cor. 1:30. 113] But faith, properly so called, is that which assents to the promise[is when my heart, and the Holy Ghost in the heart, says: The promiseof God is true and certain]. Of 114] this faith Scripture speaks. And because it receives the remission of sins, and reconciles us to God, by this faith we are [like Abraham] accounted righteous for Christ's sake before we love and do the works of the Law, although love necessarily follows. 115]Nor, indeed, is this faith an idle knowledge, neither can it coexist with mortal sin, but it is a work of the Holy Ghost, whereby we are freed from death, and terrified minds are encouraged and quickened. 116] http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justificati on.php Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
George Mueller (Mueller) Senior Member Username: Mueller Post Number: 1072 Registered: 11-2012	Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 7:25 am:       Brett, it is perfectly clear that you are either unable or unwilling to engage actual arguments. I have shown you from the clear words of the Augsburg Confession that justifying faith trusts in a present reality that ones sins are forgiven. That's what the words says. You refuse to engage me on the words before us and insist on running away from the words to other words that you imagine disagree with the words to which I would bind you. You do the same with the Scriptures. You argue like a Jehovah's Witness. Whenever you try to show them how the Bible really does teach the deity of Christ, they run to another passage that they think is incompatible with it. The deniers of objective justification have a cult-like way of thinking. Dancing and bobbing around the Scriptures and the Confessions, never willing to stand still and engage on the actual meaning of the text.
Peter M. Prange (Peterprange) New member Username: Peterprange Post Number: 8 Registered: 8-2011	Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 7:33 am:       Mr. Meyer: Would you be so kind as to answer the following question? True or false: God only bestows forgiveness in baptism on those who believe.

Support our fund-raisers, which show that we cannot support ourselves.

I was having some laughs with another writer about UOJ people boiling over on SpenerQuest.

Everything is personal for them, so they have to rave about me or someone else. They do not address Luther's great Galatians Commentary because they lack the capacity to understand and teach Biblical, Lutheran doctrine.

They could develop an ability, but that is impossible when they keep circling the corpses of the Synodical Conference, raising saints from the dead, as it were.

The truth does not depend on whether I am seen as a monster or a prophet. The personal attacks make me smile, but I would rather see the yammering yahoos deal with Luther's doctrine. They refuse. That would be work, heavy labor instead of Starbucks-induced hyperventilating.

The UOJ Hive cannot cite a single Biblical passage to support their delusions. Rather than deal with Luther on "bears the sins of the world" or Paul in Romans 4, they move along with new discoveries made from skimming texts.

The UOJ Stormtroopers are Leftists; they are destroyers of faith and have no faith.

It is no wonder that WELS and Missouri do not want to call their so-called missions Lutheran or even a church, because they despise Luther's doctrine and the Means of Grace.

They are only Lutheran when they want grants from Holy Mother Sect. Then they forget their Fuller/Willow Creek nonsense and put on pious looks. We had a college student president who was a Maoist all week long, until he had to speak to the parents gathering. Then he shaved and put on a business suit (three piece) only to revert again on Monday.

Deception is deeply rooted in WELS and Missouri, especially because the radical element took over gradually only by fooling everyone.

WELS has a special institution called GA hazing, where lying is the entire program. They still deceive people by denying GA still exists.

WELS clergy know the game, so when someone tells another outrageous lie, they interpret it thus, "Thus is policy whether you like it or not. Make one more sound about it and you are dead to us."

Missouri really established the program by establishing a sex cult far away from the suspicious eyes of the St. Louis residents, where they might have built an entire suburb with their money. Instead they obeyed the orders of their syphilitic bishop and founder, Martin Stephan, and bought worthless Mormon land in Perryville.

Everyone now blames Stephan, whose death CFW Walther hastened with his brutal treatment, but everyone who left the bishop's family behind in Dresden was guilty of deception and self-deception.

Staying with the deception and abuse means, "I choose the lies over the truth of the Word. I would rather have 10 friends among the abusive than 100 in the Kingdom of God."

People whine about how their conventions are manipulated. But who is man enough to stand at the mike and say, "Point of order. You cannot do this"? No one.

Read slowly, SpenerQuesters. React - not with your usual venom and unbelief - but with your ministerial reason.

George Mueller (Mueller) Senior Member Username: Mueller Post Number: 1070 Registered: 11-2012	Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 8:38 am:       Brett, you mocked my answer to your question about binding sins. Your mockery consisted in a rationalistic rejection of the gospel. Yet you accuse the orthodox of rationalism! You are the rationalist. You ask how all sins can be forgiven when Jesus paid for them if the sins of the impenitent are retained. That's a rationalistic argument. Your arguments against objective justification are not based on Scripture. They are based on your erring (and confused) human reason. Read article four of the Augsburg Confession. Here we Lutherans teach what justification by faith means. Read it carefully and see if you can find what the object of justifying faith is. In other words, what does the faith that justifies believe? "When they believe that . . ." Check it out and see for yourself what a Lutheran confesses. Justifying faith believes . . . what? Now this is a simple exercise, Brett. You claim to be a Lutheran and you claim to accept the Lutheran Confessions. So tell us, how does the text of the Augsburg Confession read? "When they believe that . . ." What? What is it that one believes when he is justified through faith?
Rev. David R. Boisclair (Drboisclair) Intermediate Member Username: Drboisclair Post Number: 373 Registered: 1-2002	Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 8:43 am:       Brett, you are the only one of the people who are contending with us on this topic who is willing to take a serious look at the evidence. However, you need to see that the reason that we are contending for the "Synodical Conference" doctrine is that we believe that Scripture teaches that doctrine. It is not a matter of us rationalizing it. Rydecki and now ELDoNA have restricted their view of Scripture to what they perceive the 16th and 17th century Lutheran theologians to have interpreted Scripture to say. These classic Lutheran theologians have pointed out that Romans 5:18 (Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life) points out that condemnation is decreed by God over all people because of Adam's sin. Now, as you know not all people are going to hell, so even though the verdict of condemnation is pronounced in God's Law over all people that does not mean that all people have gone to hell. In the same way as the condemnation is universal so also is the verdict of acquittal in the Gospel: all people are encompassed in that verdict of God but not all have been regenerated to receive that verdict. That is the doctrine of the Gospel, the doctrine of Universal Objective Justification. You have Universal Objective Condemnation in the Law and Universal Objective Justification in the Gospel. This is the clear teaching of God's Word not rationalism. Gregory Jackson engages in Rationalism when he slanderously accuses us of Enthusiasm because he reasons this way: Justification can only be seen narrowly as an individual's being brought to faith by God the Holy Spirit through the means of grace. Those who view Justification in a broader manner as God's action in the historic work of Christ violate that narrow view; hence, those who view Justification in a broader manner are Enthusiasts who believe that God deals with people directly without means. Another thing you should keep in mind is that Christians are permitted to use their reason ministerially (of course, not magisterially). That is what we are doing. We use our reason to serve our understanding of the Holy Scriptures not to govern our understanding of the Holy Scriptures.
Joe Krohn (Jester) Member Username: Jester Post Number: 188 Registered: 4-2011	Posted on Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - 10:00 am:       "You have Universal Objective Condemnation in the Law and Universal Objective Justification in the Gospel." Spot on. I don't mean to skew this discussion, but if one would want to really expose the doctrine of Brett Meyer et al, transition to the intertwined Doctrine of Election.

SpenerQuesters, Jay Webber, his catechumen Jon Buchholz, and various ninnies see Rambach as their Reformer.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Matthew 24:15-28

The other part of this lesson warns against following false Messiahs, who will definitely spring up.

"It is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness."

I am converting from Windows XP to Windows 7 this weekend. That means I have lost the email addresses for now. I am going to change calendars and do some other things to catch up with the 21st century.

Team Ichabod was able to use this opportunity to recycle some equipment.

The main fixes will be done today and the rest done over the next week. Backing up an old operating system and reloading it is almost as much fun as moving, which we did last year at this time.

---

Everything went wrong yesterday, Internet-wise. Our worship service began with lags and losing the connection, and ended completely, partway through the service.

Cox was unreachable, except through their robot voice, so I figured it was system failure from the storms.

One online school had its grading function broken. "When will it be fixed?" Silence.

Because I moved from XP to Windows 7, I lost some crucial passwords, my email address list, and my main email password. That also prevented some fixes because the send a password function would go to my email address. This kept me from taking care of some other items on the computer.

My wife wanted to know about a routine test I was having. Oh, that information got wiped out.

Today has to be better.

"It's been said, 'As a seminary goes, so goes a synod.'" ~ President Mark Schroeder, WELS.

Here is my NNIV paraphrase - dynamic equivalency - 

"It's been sad. As a seminary goes down the drain, so does the synod. And we are all to blame."

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=19707

Scottish priest who wrote of 'lavender mafia' is suspended; parishioners revolt

The UOJ Hive is always discovering a new insight outside of the Book of Concord, but they never explain how this simple statement destroys their fantasies. They must have the Satanic Easter absolution of the unbelieving world as their comfort. The Gospel will not do for them.

http://www.intrepidlutherans.com/2013/11/johann-gerhard-on-1-timothy-316.html#comment-form

LPC said...

Joe,

I am a mathematician and logician by training. We do not accept self contradictory statements. We recognise paradoxes, they are puzzlements, but we will not accept self contradictory assertions. Why? There is an axiom that says - ex falso quodlibet - from a contradiction, you can deduce anything you like. That makes your belief system nonsensical, which is what happens when one accepts the self contradiction and sophistry of UOJ teachers.

Romans 1:8/2:5 It is a drastic statement to say that God has no wrath for any man. The Book of Revelation has plenty to teach about the wrath of God. According to Scripture God is holding off his wrath, Romans 9:22. To withhold his wrath does not mean he has no more wrath. UOJers are guilty of making a jump from Atonement to Justification skipping faith in the process. You do the similar thing in jumping the gun in stating that God has no wrath for any man. UOJ is a rationalistic overstatement, and so your statement is in keeping with your philosophical source.

LPC

***

GJ - Dr. Lito Cruz has many fine posts here. I am going to repost his latest now. 

Sunday, November 17, 2013

Who promotes UOJ?

***

GJ - I am looking forward to the UOJ Hive leaving their confines for open debate with you, Lito. The new nickname is funny. I have favored SpenerQuest because the syphilitic founder of the LCMS, Martin Stephan, learned his UOJ at Halle and taught his lapdog CFW Walther the same.

You and others argue for the Calvinistic origin of UOJ, especially since Hunnius published such a glorious smackdown of Samuel Huber on this very topic.

I fail to see a big gap between Huber's Easter absolution and the Calvinist Woods' explanation of Knapp as double justification. A Calvinist superstar making his reputation by translating Halle's famous old Pietist into English is only part of the story. Add to that - the Woods translation remained a key theology textbook for all mainline Protestant schools in the 19th century - and remains in print today.

A researcher and I have our own copies of Knapp, printed in English before the LiStephanite sex cult landed in New Orleans. We know the Missouri Synod was Germanic from the start, and remained so until WWI made German a bad language to know and use.

Therefore, Knapp was a key theologian in German and English for America. All the American Lutheran groups were Pietistic in origin so the Halle lectures were not suspect but respected.

Lito, you made a good point on Intrepid Lutherans. Anything can follow from an absurd proposition.

Here are some absurd propositions or assumptions that form the foundation of UOJ absurdities:

1. Faith is a work, so attributing anything to faith is contrary to grace.
2. Anything attributed to Christ is also true for mankind, so his justification absolved mankind.
3. "It is finished" means - Everyone is forgiven and saved, regardless of faith, without the Gospel.
4. Many means all.
5. UOJ has always been the Gospel, but only known and taught in the ELS, WELS, and ELCA.

Norma Boeckler

Luther's Sermon for the TWENTY-FIFTH SUNDAY AFTER TRINITY. Matthew 24:15-28

This sermon is found in all editions of the Church Postil and in two pamphlet prints, both issued at Wittenberg in 1525, under the title: “A sermon on the Jewish kingdom and the end of the world, Matthew 24, preached on the last Sunday after Pentecost, Martin Luther, Wittenberg.”

At the end: “Printed at Wittenberg by Hans Lufft, 1525.”

This sermon is also printed along with the sermon on the Gospel for the 10th Sunday after Trinity, on the Destruction of Jerusalem, which appeared in three editions during 1525. Erl. 14, 368; W. 11, 2493; St. L. 11, 1868; and Standard English Luther, 13 vol 315 p.

Text: Matthew 24:15-28. When therefore, ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains: let him that is on the housetop not go down to take out the things that are in his house: and let him that is in the field not return back to take his cloak. But woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on a sabbath: for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is the Christ, or, Here; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you beforehand. If therefore they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the wilderness; go not forth: Behold, he is in the inner chambers; believe it not.

For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming of the Son of man.

Wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

CONTENTS:

THE DESTRUCTION OF THE KINGDOM OF THE JEWS, THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION, AND THE END OF THE WORLD.
I. THESE THREE PARTS IN GENERAL.

1. The difference in the order, in which the Evangelists relate these three parts.

2. What is to be observed, if one is to understand them correct]y. 2.

II. THESE THREE PARTS IN DETAIL.

A. The First Part is the Destruction of the Jewish Kingdom.

1. How and why the Jews did not believe in this destruction.

2. How God in different ways made known this destruction. 4-5.

3. The time of this destruction. 6.

B. The Second Part is the Abomination of Desolation.

1. This abomination was a sign of the destruction of the Jewish nation mentioned above.

2. The nature of this abomination. 8-9.

3. The results of this abomination. 10-11.

4. How a double exhortation is attached to this part a. The first exhortation. b. The second exhortation. 13.

C. The Third Part is the End of the World.

1. The connection of this part with the preceding. 14-15.

2. What will take place before the end of the world. 16f.

* Of the Pope. a. How the Pope sits in the temple of God. b. The Pope is the greatest abomination and the true Anti-christ. 20-21. c. How we may know that the Pope is the abomination of the desert. 23-24.

3. How Christ attaches a warning to this part. a. The nature of this warning. b. The ground and the cause of this warning. (1) The first ground and cause. 26-28. (2) The second ground and cause.

* The conclusion of this exposition. 30-31, 1. In this chapter there is a description of the end of two kingdoms; of the kingdom of the Jews, and also of the kingdom of the world. But the two Evangelists, Matthew and Mark, unite the two and do not follow the order as Luke did, for they have nothing more in view than to relate and give the words of Christ, and are not concerned about what was said either before or after. But Luke takes special pains to write clearly and in the true order, and relates this discourse twice; first briefly in the 19th chapter, where he speaks of the destruction of the Jews at Jerusalem; afterwards in the 21st chapter he speaks of both, one following the other.

2. Notice therefore that Matthew unites the two and at the same time conceives the end, both of the Jewish nation and of the world. He therefore cooks both into one soup. But if you want to understand it, you must separate and put each by itself, that which really treats of the Jews, and that which relates to the whole world. This we wish to do now.

3. Notice, first, how Christ prophecies in this chapter concerning the final destruction of the Jewish nation, which the Jews did not at all believe, even though they had been dearly told through great signs and words, the promises of God which he made to the fathers, like unto which had happened to no other people upon the earth. For this reason they strongly insisted and depended upon it, thought it will continue forever, as they think even at the present time; that their kingdom is not destroyed but has only disbanded a little and shall be re-established. They cannot get it out of their minds that they are not completely ruined.

4. For this reason God announced besides his miracles with clear and plain prophesies that their kingdom shall have an end and that God had abolished the external reign of the law, meats, offerings, etc., and would establish another which shall endure forever, as the angel announced to the virgin concerning Christ, as recorded in Luke 1:33. “And he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.”

5. Among the various passages which treat of the end of Judaism there is especially one that is introduced by Christ, namely: the prophet Daniel, 9:25f, speaks of the terrible abomination, standing where he ought not, when he says concerning the Jewish nation, “Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the anointed one the Prince, shall be seven weeks, and three-score and two weeks,” that makes together seventy weeks or years, “And after the three-score and two weeks, shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the Prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined. And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.”

6. The Prophet Daniel desired to know the definite time when this should come to pass, but he could not learn it, and although the angel pointed out a definite time, it was nevertheless too dark for the prophet to understand, hence he said before: But at last, at the last time, you shall see everything, that is, your prophecy, that is to be revealed to you, shall transpire at the end of time. For when Christ sent out the Gospel through the ministry of himself and of the Apostles, it lasted three or three and a half years, that it almost amounts to the calculation of Daniel, namely the 490 years. Hence he also says, Christ shall take a half a week, in which the daily offerings shall cease; that is, the priesthood and reign of the Jews shall have an end; which all took place in the three and a half years in which Christ preached, and was almost completed in four years after Christ, in which the Gospel prospered the most, especially in Palestine through the Apostles (that when they opened their mouth, the Holy Ghost fell as it were, from heaven, as we see in the Acts of the Apostles), so that a whole week, or seven years, established the covenant, as Daniel says; that is, the Gospel was preached to the Jews, of which we spoke before. Now, when the time came that a new message or sermon began, there must also begin a new kingdom, that is, where Christ rules spiritually in our hearts through the Word and faith.

If this is now to continue, then the other must be set aside and has no more authority and must cease. This is the part of the prophecy of the phophets, which Christ is explaining.

7. The other treats of the abomination of desolation. Here Christ now says, When ye shall see this one standing in the temple, then take heed (he wants to say) for that is a sure sign from Daniel’s prophecy that his kingdom is now at an end; and do not let yourselves be deceived because the Jews and weak Christians think that it shall never be destroyed.

8. But the abomination of which Daniel writes is that the Emperor Cajus, as history tells, had put his image in the temple at Jerusalem as an idol, for the people to worship, after everything there had been destroyed. For the Scriptures call idolatry really an abomination, because God abhors and abominates it, inasmuch as he is the enemy of no sin so much as of this.

The others he does truly punish, but he does not cast the people away if they repent, as he says in Psalm 89:31-34: “If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. But my loving kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.” But this sin, called idolatry, which is really unbelief and denial of God, which he cannot at all endure, condemns man completely. For where this remains in the heart of man, so that he teaches and believes correctly, indicates that our works are nothing, and that we shall be acceptable to God and serve him aright alone through faith, then there will be a truly godly character; there light and truth abide. Although along side of faith there runs a sense of the weakness of the flesh. It is not an abomination before God, but only a daily sin that God will punish unto repentance; yet he keeps the people, spares them and forgives them, when the people turn to him and learn to acknowledge his goodness. On the other hand, where this faith and doctrine do not exist, everything is lost; for it is impossible for man not to establish for himself a false worship and choose his own opinion and work, and worship it, so that he really denies God and his Word, and God is entirely turned aside; so that his grace cannot operate. Such abomination is generally the most beautiful and the greatest holiness in the eyes of the world, which outwardly appears in beautiful works and customs; but inwardly is full of filthiness, as we can see at the present day in our orders and church services where they are at their best. However there are again some Christians who are not like these in their works and ways; but are truly holy before God.

9. Now Christ says, when the abomination, that is, this idol, shall stand in the temple, the kingdom shall finally be made desolate and destroyed, so that it can never be rebuilt again, as Luke expresses it clearly in these words, Luke 21:20f: “But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that our desolation is at hand. Then let them that are in Judea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein. For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.”

And further, “Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight may be not in the winter, neither on a Sabbath: for then shall be great tribulation, such as had not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.”

10. All this pertains still to the Jewish nation. For if this should come upon us at the end of the world, then would we, according to the text, have to be in the land of Judea, because he really points to that country. It is also true, when he says that no greater calamity has been or can be upon the earth than was at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem; as we see in history, how unmercifully they were slaughtered and even killed one another, cast themselves into the fire, and permitted themselves to kill one another. Yea, the famine was so great that they ate the strings of cross-bows and even their own children. It was so shameful and abominable that like pity and distress shall never be heard again.

11. But they themselves wanted it, hence God permitted them to be thus blighted and destroyed. He would gladly have had mercy upon them and preserved them, but they brought themselves to such distress with their stiff-neckedness, that they killed and consumed one another; that as they began it, all such murder and bloodshed had to increase. Thus the death of Christ and of all the prophets is most abominably avenged on them, and that without ceasing, they raged against the Word of God, and persecuted and drove away the Apostles, as St. Paul says in Thessalonians 2:15-16, that the wrath of God finally came upon them.

12. When such fearful wrath and abominable plagues are at hand, says Christ, then flee wherever ye are able to flee; for these words, “Then flee unto the mountains, he that is in Judea, and he that is upon the housetop,” etc.; then; “He who is in the field,” etc., are all written or spoken symbolically, as if to say, hasten quickly away; the sooner the better, and let no one find or overtake you. This also came to pass. After the Jews had been sufficiently warned by many signs, that they should submit themselves to the Romans, and they would not; then the disciples and apostles fled away and followed this saying of Christ, they left everything behind that was in Judea and never returned to take anything.

13. “And pray ye,” he says further, “that your flight be not in the winter, neither on a Sabbath;” that is, see to it that you flee at the right time, that you be not overtaken. For he did not want to perform a miracle and keep them safely in the midst of the enemy, although he could have done so; for he had determined that everything that was there should be completely destroyed together; therefore all as one mass were only fit for destruction.

If there were indeed a great multitude at Jerusalem according to the record, a million and a hundred thousand men were melted together, as many as were in the city. Therefore Jesus admonishes the disciples that they should not postpone their flight to the Sabbath, when they did not dare to journey; nor to the winter, when it would be cold; but that they should depart, the sooner the better; that if they hesitate, an inconvenient time to flee would come.

14. Thus far Jesus speaks concerning the Jews. Now I have said before that Matthew and Mark unite these two ends together. Therefore it is difficult to discriminate, and yet we must discriminate between the two. Therefore notice that what had been said up to the present, all referred to the Jews; but now he weaves both together, breaks off abruptly, does not concern himself about the order in which the passages were spoken by Christ, and how they are connected with and follow one another; but leaves it to the Evangelist Luke, yet he wants to say that it shall be thus at the last day, and says: “And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved; but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.”

15. This refers to both parts and the meaning is, that the distress shall not endure long, for the sake of the godly; for the war against the Jews did not last quite two years, when peace was declared. But since all this has reference also to the end of the world, we wish to apply these passages concerning the Jews also to ourselves, so that we do justice to the Evangelist.

16. That a war shall come again as came upon the Jews, I do not expect, because the text says: There shall be such tribulation as shall never be again, as we also read and see; but another punishment shall come upon us; as that was a temporal war, so at the end of the world will a spiritual war come over the ungodly, who will be in the same condition as the Jews.

Thus they will agree with one another: as that calamity came upon Jerusalem according to God’s ordering and everything was ground to powder; so abominable, and even worse, shall it be before the last day, when he shall Come and make an end of the whole world.

17. For when Christ ascended into heaven, he established his kingdom not only in Judea, but extended it into all the world by means of the Gospel, which is being preached and heard everywhere. But we are doing just like the Jews, we deny and persecute the Word of God, kill the Christians who confess and preach this Gospel, as at the first the Romans, and afterwards to the present day, the Pope, bishops, princes, monks and priests do. This has now been done, for more than five hundred years, and no one was allowed to preach the Word of God, unless they repeated from the pulpit the text of the Gospel for a mere show, and afterwards brought out of it or put into it the mere doctrines of men. If anyone opposed it, they rose against him with fire and sword and suppressed it. And it avails nothing, how they are warned and frightened by words and signs; they still stand in their pride, storm and rage against it as lunatics, so that God will ever have sufficient reason to destroy them finally and eternally at the last day.

18. Therefore this passage in Daniel concerning the abomination applies also to us. For we also have indeed a real abomination or desolation sitting in a holy place, namely: in Christendom and in the consciences of men, where God alone should sit and reign, of which Daniel speaks in very clear words in the 8th and 9th chapters. For this is the real pure doctrine, if we preach that we are redeemed by Christ from sin, death, satan and all misfortune, and are planted in the kingdom of God through the Word and faith and thereby are made free from all law, and that no man, whoever he be, can enter into the kingdom of God through the works of the law nor be made free from sin. Where this is preached and believed, there Christ reigns spiritually in the heart without a medium; there is the Holy Spirit with all the treasures and fullness of the riches of God.

19. But what is the Pope doing? He is sitting not in the natural temple or God’s house, but in the spiritual, in the new and living temple of which Paul says: “If any man destroyeth the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are,” Corinthians 3:16-17. In all times many devils and heretics have tried to sit here, and all who are preaching against the true doctrine: If you want to be saved, then simply join this or that society and order, and do this or that work. They draw away the people from faith to works, although they are using the words, Christ is the Lord, but in truth deny him, for they do not say a single word that he forgives sins alone through grace, and redeems from death and hell, but they say: Through this order, through these works, we must do penance for sin, and atone for it in order to obtain grace, which is as much as to say: Christ did not accomplish it, he is not the Savior; his suffering and death cannot help, for if your works can accomplish it, then Christ cannot accomplish it only through his blood and death, or the other must be in vain. If you insist upon your works, then you drive out Christ; you deny and put to shame his precious blood and him with it; then he cannot reign in your heart through his Word, work and spirit, but my work is my idol whom I let sit in my heart and reign.

20. Thus you see whether the Pope is not the greatest arch-abomination of all abominations, to whom Christ and Daniel refer; and the true Antichrist, of whom it is written that he sitteth in the temple of God, among the people, where Christ is named and where his kingdom, spirit, baptism, Word and faith should be: because he interferes with the office and kingdom of Christ by his fanaticism of the spiritual rites of Christ, wants to rule over the consciences and govern with his propositions and works. And he can in truth be called an “abomination of desolation,” who is only destroying and laying waste everything, for as has been said: Christ and my works cannot abide together; if the one stands, the other must go down and be destroyed; wherefore the Pope has made desolate the kingdom of Christ, as far as his diocese reaches, and all who join him have denied Christ.

21. St. Paul prophesied all this, when in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, he calls him: “The man of sin and the son of perdition, he that opposeth and exalteth himself against all that is called God or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, setting himself forth as God.” But that the Papists want to turn this passage from themselves and say: Christ and Paul are speaking of the temple of Jerusalem, that Antichrist shall sit and rule there, amounts to nothing. For Christ says here, that Jerusalem together with the temple shall have an end, and after its destruction it shall never be rebuilt. Therefore since Paul is pointing to the time after the Jewish kingdom, and the destruction of the material temple, it cannot be understood otherwise than of the new spiritual temple, which as he says himself, we are. There, Paul says, the Pope shall sit and be honored, not above God, but above everything that is called God, for the name of God does indeed remain the highest honor, therefore he cannot exalt himself above the true God, but above that which is called God and is worshipped; that is, he is exalted against his preaching and honor, higher than the true God, as is apparent in that so many princes and the world are clinging to him and regard his command higher and greater than the command of God.

If any man eats meat contrary to his command or goes out of the impure calling of the priest, monk, or nun, into married life, as God has commanded, or according to the institution of Christ takes the sacrament in both forms; that is the greatest sin. They regarded it much less than stealing, adultery and all open vice against the command of God, and no one is even allowed to punish them for it. Yea, that they themselves defame the Word of God, persecute and kill the Christians, they esteem as the highest service of God, as it is also the highest service they can do for their god, the Pope. Is not this exalting and honoring Anti-christ against God, so that if anyone speaks or does anything against this, if he gets into their hands, he must immediately die? I think now that enough has been pictured forth and explained concerning this abomination.

22. Now it is high time for him to run and flee, who is able to flee; let everything he has behind and depart; the sooner the better; not with his feet but with his heart, in such a way that he will be rid of the abomination and enter the kingdom of Christ through faith. But to do this reason and a keen insight are needed rightly to discern the abomination. It cannot be seen in any way better than when we compare it to Christ who teaches, as stated above, that we are reconciled to God, and are saved through his blood. But the Pope ascribes this power to our works. Thus you ever see that to be saved through works and not to be saved through works (to believe on Christ as our justification before God) are contrary to each other. If you then want to remain with Christ, you must flee from the Pope and let him go.

23. This is now the abomination of desolation that has reigned until our time; but is now revealed through the grace of God, but will never be destroyed by emporer or worldly power. It must all be higher than that material destruction, since that was such a great tribulation, that there never can be a greater physically. Therefore did God reserve the destruction of this abomination for himself, as Paul says in Thessalonians 2:8: “Whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming.” Although they themselves fear evil from worldly power and insurrection, yet this shall not be so well with them. For they are not worthy of such mild punishment, and God will not grant unto them that they be destroyed through man, but will do it himself without means, through his Word.

Inasmuch as it has now made a beginning and the kingdom is destroyed even to the extent that it avails nothing, nor can take captive the conscience of those who know the Gospel. However hostile the Pope rages against the Gospel; he must nevertheless fall at the feet of princes and seek help from them. Hence his power is weakened and broken by means of the Gospel; but his final destruction is reserved unto the last day. Therefore it must continue in part until Christ at his coming shall destroy and grind to powder all together from heaven.

24. But as at that time among the Jews, the days were shortened, as Christ said, so must now also the days be shortened for the elect’s sake; for we see that the government of the Pope has had opposition and has declined during the last hundred years, without, at the Council of Constance where Huss was burned at the stake, having frightened everybody that he was held as God; but the truth came finally to light, so that now it is very much despised and can endure but a little longer; hence we notice, as I said before, that our text refers not only to the Jews but also to our abomination, the Pope’s kingdom. Now Christ says further: “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is the Christ, or, Here; believe it not.”

25. From this passage we should indeed know and understand how to conquer the Pope and his rebel horde, who abolish the kingdom of Christ, and bind the Christian life to external and visible things, as they also publicly declare: Where the Pope is, there is the Christian church. They want to lead us to the point that we should find, feel and touch it in person or state, or in a manner that is wholly external. Thus they do in all their cloisters and institutions. Therefore they say: If you enter this calling, eat, clothe yourself, pray and fast so and so, then you will atone for your sins and be saved. Heretofore Christ pictured this beautifully to us, and pointed to all these cloisters, callings and works, by which they wish to help the soul, and warns us to be careful of them, and not to permit ourselves to be drawn from the foundation upon which we stand; that we cannot become Christians through any such thing; but are redeemed from all evil alone through his blood and are planted into his kingdom, if we believe. He thus takes from our eyes all temporal and external things, casts to the ground with one word all doctrines that do not proclaim faith in its purity, and all life that is not regulated according to the right doctrine of faith. In short, he adds: “If anyone says, here or there is Christ,” believe it not, which means:

Beware of everything that leads you to works, for it surely deceives and separates you from me. “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.”

26. These are admirable, earnest and fearful words, that these preachers of works must force this truth into the people with such a show and emphasis that even the saints who stand in faith cannot protect themselves against it, but are led astray thereby, as has been the case. For the dear fathers, Augustine, I think Jerome also, likewise St. Bernard, Gregory, Francis, Dominicus and many others, although they were godly men, have all erred here, as I have often remarked in other places. For this error, that the Christian life was bound to external things, was early introduced and they with others were swept into it, and it went so far that they were led into it by their outward conduct, as we see in the books of St. Bernard, how poorly he writes when he answered anyone on the questions of their monastic life; but when he writes freely out of his own soul, he preaches so elegantly that it is a pleasure for him, as Augustine, Jerome, Cyprian, the great and noble martyr, and many others experienced. But when any question was laid before them concerning the law and external regulations, whether we should understand it so, or so, then they immediately stumbled and fell, so that little was needed to mislead them. Still the followers of the Pope use this as the greatest argument against us. They say, should so many holy people and teachers have erred, and should God have forsaken the world so completely? They do not see that this becomes to them a stumbling-block to cause their fall.

27. What shall we now answer them? The passage lies clearly before us.

This we must believe and let it stand; we cannot get away from it, even though the holy angels in heaven were against it, for should not Christ be holier and his Word amount to more than their word? For he never at any time says: Lord of the many or of the great multitude, but of the small number, of the elect, that they should stumble, so that they would almost be led astray, and he warns us that we should not cling to this, when we see that they cling to external things. Had they then not erred, Christ could not have been right when he proclaimed it. Now if all the saints should come and bid me believe in the Pope, I would not do it, but say: Even though you are of the elect, Christ nevertheless has said that there should be abominable and dangerous times: that you also must err. Therefore we must cling alone to the Scriptures and to the Word of God, which say he is not here nor there. Where he is, there I shall be. He will not be there where my work or calling is. Now whoever teaches me otherwise deceives me; therefore I still insist that nothing avails that they propose, as for example:

The holy fathers and teachers thought so, lived so, hence we also must think and live in like manner; but this avails: Christ taught and thought so, therefore we must also think the same, for he is authority, above all the saints. “Behold, I have told you beforehand. If therefore they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the wilderness; go not forth: Behold, he is in the inner chambers; believe it not.”

28. At the time of the holy fathers, Anthony and others, shortly after the Apostles, the fallacy already arose, of which Christ is speaking here, although Anthony strove against it, that everybody was running to the wilderness by the thousands, and it gained such favor that later Jerome and Augustine almost worshipped custom, and did not know how sufficiently to praise it. Now when we look at it in the right light, this text powerfully opposes that movement, and there were also among them many heretics and many condemned persons, and although there were godly people among them who escaped the deception, nevertheless the example was dangerous and cannot be commended. Also St. Francis was a holy man, but his example and the order he established we are not to follow. But this no one, not even the saints, has recognized; so deeply and with such great display has it taken root. The Christian life is not confined to the wilderness, but moves freely in public society as Christ and the Apostles lived, that we come before and among the world, preach and admonish openly, to bring the people to Christ; but the people who run to the wilderness, do not want to remain in the world where they must suffer so much. They choose for themselves their own strict life, want thereby to be better Christians than others, as also the cloisters do, which are designated by Christ as the “chambers.” Christ closes now and says: “For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming of the Son of man.”

29. By this Christ wishes to say: Only do not believe them, when they want to bind Christ to this or that, and try to lead you from faith to works. I warn you not to fall from the pure faith, for you know not it what hour I will come. When anyone neglects his looking for me, then I will come as suddenly as the lightning flashes from heaven. When anyone clings not to him by faith, he is lost. Therefore see to it, that that day does not come upon you unawares. Remain steadfast in the faith, so that if you be indolent and sleep, satan may not tare you from .your faith. But these words here follow each other in disorder. For as I said, Matthew gives these passages all in a heap and not in order. Therefore it does not agree exactly with the words which follow here: “Wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together.”

30. That is, you need not ask where the place is, where Christ shall come. I am where I wish to be, hence we will meet each other, as we say: “Wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.”

For as the eagle does not paint for himself the place to which it will fly, but wherever the carcase is, there they will be gathered together; thus mine own will also find me. Where I am, there shall my elect also be. This is the text concerning the end of the Jews and of the world: to which Matthew now unites the passages concerning the signs of the last day, all which Luke separates clearly. This will belong to another occasion and is elsewhere fully discussed.

Note. Some on the last Sunday of the year preach on the Gospel of John 6, where Christ feeds the multitudes with five loaves and two fishes, which is explained in the Winter Postil during Lent. — God be praised forever.

Luther's Sermon for the TWENTY-SIXTH SUNDAY AFTER TRINITY. Matthew 25:31-46


This sermon is found only in the c. edition. Erl. 14, 375; W. 11, 2515; St. L. 11, 1884.

Text: Matthew 25:31-46. But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats; and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in; naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink? And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? And when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me, And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.

CONTENTS:

CHRIST’S RETURN TO JUDGE THE CHRISTIANS AND THE GODLESS.
I. HOW THE COMING OF CHRIST IS PRESENTED FOR OUR COMFORT AND EXHORTATION:AND ALSO TO WARN AND TERRIFY US.

II. HOW THIS COMING OF CHRIST WILL TAKE PLACE.

III. THIS COMING OF CHRIST WILL CAUSE THE GODLESS THE GREATEST PAIN AND TERROR.

IV. TO WHAT END WILL THIS COMING TAKE PLACE,AND WHAT WILL FOLLOW FROM IT.

A. He will separate the goats from the sheep. 5-6.

B. He will pronounce Judgment.

1. In what way will Judgment be pronounced. 7.

2. Why Christ in this judgment refers only to the works of mercy and of no mercy. a. The ground and cause of this question. 8-10. b. The answer of this question. (1) The first answer. 11-20. * The great unmerciful spirit of the world, and its ingratitude toward the Gospel, and what kind of punishment will follow it, 11-16. * The horrible ruin that will visit the persecutors of the Church of God. 17. * How and why a terrible sentence will be passed upon the Pope and his followers. 18-20. (2) The second answer. 21f.

3. To what end shall this Judgment serve believing Christians. 22-24.

4. The world is striving hard to the end that it may hear this sentence. 25-26.

5. How and why we should well grasp and consider this sentence. 27. * It is a very excellent work to do good to a Christian; and a great sin to cause a Christian pain. 28-29. * How and why the pulpit and the school must be maintained. 29-32. * Complaint against the unmerciful and wicked spirit of the world. 33. * A prophecy concerning Germany. 34-36.

1. The words of this Gospel are in themselves clear and lucid. They have been given both for the comfort and encouragement of believing Christians, and for the warning and terror of others, if perchance, they might be of help to them. While most lessons almost exclusively teach and inculcate faith, this one treats only of the works, which Christ will examine at the last day, that it may be seen that he wishes them to be remembered and performed by those who wish to be Christians and be found in his kingdom.

2. And Christ himself gives this admonition here in the strongest terms that can be given, both in the consoling promise of a glorious, eternal reward, and in the most terrible threatenings of eternal wrath and punishment upon all who despise the admonition; so that whoever is not moved and aroused by these words can certainly never be moved by anything. For Christ says, he will himself come visibly in his majesty, at the last day, with all the angels, and that he will transplant all who have believed in him and have exercised love toward his followers, into his father’s kingdom of eternal glory all who believe in him and love his saints; and that he will also cast into hell forever all who live not as Christians, and who separate themselves from him and all his saints.

3. Now, had it not been told us we should be inquisitive beyond measure to know what would happen on the last day, and what Jesus would say and do on that day. Here we are now told, and have set before us first of all, death, which no one can escape; but after that the day of judgment. Then it shall come to pass that Christ will bring together by means of the resurrection all who have ever lived upon earth; and at the same time he will descend in great inexpressible majesty, sitting upon the throne of judgment, with all the heavenly host hovering around him; and all the good and bad will appear, so that we shall all stand exposed before him. and no one will be able to conceal himself.

4. The appearance of this glory and majesty will immediately become a great terror and pain to the condemned, as we read in to-day’s Epistle lesson, lest they shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, 2 Thessalonians 1:9-10. For even if there were no more than a single angel present, there would not remain in his presence one fickle, wicked conscience, were it possible to escape, any more than a thief and a rascal can bear to come before a human judge. If he could escape, he would much prefer it, if only for the purpose that he might escape public disgrace, to say nothing of his being compelled to hear the judgment passed upon him.

What a terrible sight this will be, when the ungodly shall see not only all God’s angels and creatures, but also the Judge in his divine majesty, and shall hear the verdict of eternal destruction and hell fire pronounced upon them forever! This ought surely to be a strong, powerful admonition for us to live as Christians, so that we may stand in honor and without fear at the right hand of this majestic Lord, where there will be no fear nor terror, but pure comfort and everlasting joy.

5. For he will then, as he says here himself, immediately separate the goats from the sheep. And this will take place publicly in the presence of all angels, men, and creatures, and before the whole rabble of an ungodly world, that it may be seen who have been pious, honest Christians, as well as who have been false hypocrites. This separation cannot take place in the world until that day, not even in the assembly that constitutes the Christian Church. The good and the bad must remain together in this world, as the parable of the wedding guests says, Matthew 22:10; or as Christ himself had to tolerate Judas among his Apostles. Christians are even now grieved that they must remain here in the midst of a crooked, perverse, ungodly people, which is the kingdom of Satan, Philippians 2:15.

6. While they have their sufferings here upon earth, they will have also their comfort on the coming day of judgment, when Christ will separate them from the other flock, so that after that day no false, ungodly men, nor death, nor devil can ever touch them or offend them.

7. Then he will pronounce the verdict in the very words in which he has already prepared it and set it forth, and he will certainly not change it. And the words are peculiar in this that he makes them depend upon the deeds and works here mentioned, which they have or have not done, and which are the basis and cause of his judgment. And all these words set forth at length the works which have been done as well as those which have been neglected. And all this shall happen m the twinkling of an eye, when the hearts of all men shall be revealed before all creatures; and as it is preached here, so there all will be forthwith executed.

8. You may ask why Christ there especially examine works called deeds of mercy, or the neglect of such works? Six different kinds are mentioned in the text, although many more might be given; yet were one to judge critically in the matter, there are no more works than those implied in the fifth commandment: Thou shalt not kill; in which we are commanded in general, as Christ himself explains it, not to be angry with our neighbor, but to be kind to him and ready to serve and assist him, supply his wants in times of need, whether in hunger, thirst, nakedness, suffering, imprisonment, sickness or other troubles, and to do this even to those who may have given us occasion for anger or for unmerciful acts, and thus do not appear to be worthy of our love and benevolence. For that is a poor virtue which does good only to those we love, or from whom we hope to receive kindness and thanks in return.

But one might, as has been said, add to those works of mercy many more from other commandments; for example from the sixth, that one is to assist his neighbor, to protect his wife, children and domestics, and to keep them under proper restraint and in honor; also from the seventh, eighth and last commandments, that is, to help save and maintain the goods and property, house, home and good report of his neighbor; also to help protect and defend the poor, the oppressed and the down-trodden.

9. Now Christ says also in Matthew 12:36, that men must give an account on the day of judgment not only of the transgressions of these commandments, but also of every idle word they have spoken. Then where shall the works of the first table, the greatest commandment, as right teaching, faith, prayer, hearing and preaching of God’s Word, and the like, find their place? Why does he pronounce such a harsh and severe judgment only upon those who have omitted to do the works of the fifth commandment? Because these works appear almost the same as those which the heathen do. For the Turks do more works of this kind and boast more of them than we who are called Christians. Among them each one regards his neighbor as his brother and shares with him whatever he has.

Nay, they regard it the greatest unfaithfulness and most shameful vice not to share bread with a neighbor in times of hunger. Why does he so highly extol these works which shine so brightly also among the Turks and among the heathen? Certainly he does not mean to say that those also who are not Christians merit eternal life by reason of such works?

10. For Christ himself shows that he is speaking of the works of believing Christians, when he says: “I was hungry and ye gave me to eat,” etc.; “what ye have done unto the least of these my brethren ye have done unto me.” For there is no doubt that he who performs such works of mercy to Christians, must himself be a Christian and a believer; but he who does not believe in Christ, will certainly never be so kind toward a Christian, much less toward Christ, so that for his sake he would show mercy to the poor, and needy; therefore he will refer to these works at the judgment, and accordingly pronounce the verdict to both parties, to those who have done, and those who have not done these works, as a public testimony of the fruits of their faith or of their unbelief.

11. It seems as though he meant hereby to show that many Christians, after receiving the preaching of the Gospel, of the forgiveness of sins and grace through Christ, become even worse than the heathen. For he also says in Matthew 19:30, “Many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.” Thus it will also be at the end of the world; those who should be honest Christians, because they heard the Gospel, are much worse and more unmerciful than they were before, as we see too many examples of this even now.

Aforetime when we were to do good works under the seduction and false worship of the Papacy, every one was ready and willing; a prince, for example, or a city, could give more alms and a greater endowment than now all the kings and emperors are able to give. But now all the world seems to be learning nothing else than how to estimate values, to rake and scrape, to rob and steal by lying, deceiving, usury, overcharging, overrating, and the like; and every man treats his neighbor, not as though he were his friend, much less as his brother in Christ, but as his mortal enemy, and as though he intended to snatch all things to himself and begrudge everything to others.

12. This goes on daily, is constantly increasing, is a very common practice and custom, among all classes of people, among princes, the nobility, burghers, peasants, in all courts, cities, villages, yes in almost every home.

Tell me, what city is now so strong and pious as to be able to raise an amount sufficient to support a schoolmaster or a preacher? Yes, if we did not already have the liberal alms and endowments of our forefathers, the Gospel would long ago have disappeared in the cities on account of the burghers, and in the country because of the nobility and peasants, and poor preachers would have nothing to eat nor to drink. For we do not love to give, but would rather take even by force what others have given and endowed. Therefore it is no credit to us that a single pulpit or school is still maintained. Yea, how many there are among the great, the powerful, and the rich, especially in the Papacy, who would like to see nothing better than all preachers, schools, and arts exterminated.

13. Such are the thanks to the blessed Gospel, by which men have been freed from the bondage and plagues of the Pope, that they must become so shamefully wicked in these last times. They are now no more unmerciful, no more in a human, but in a satanic way; they are not satisfied with being allowed to enjoy the Gospel, and grow fat by robbing and stealing the revenues of the church, but they must also be scheming with all their power how they may completely starve out the Gospel. One can easily count upon his fingers, what they who enjoy the Gospel are doing and giving here and elsewhere; and, were it only for us now living, there would long since have been no preacher or student from whom our children and descendants might know what we had taught and believed.

14. In short, what do you think Christ will say on that day, seated on his judgment throne, to such unmerciful Christianity? “Dear sir, listen, you have also pretended to be a Christian and boasted of the Gospel; did you not also hear this sermon, that I myself preached, in which I told you what my verdict and decision would be: ‘Depart from me, ye cursed?’ I was hungry and thirsty, naked and sick, poor and in prison, and ye gave me no meat, no drink, clothed me not, took me not in, and visited me not. Why have ye neglected this, and have been more shameless and unmerciful toward your own brethren than the Turk or heathen?”

Will you excuse yourself by pleading: “Lord, when saw we thee hungry or thirsty?” etc. Then he will answer you again through your own conscience:

Dear sir, were there no people who preached to you; or perhaps poor students who should have at the time been studying and learning God’s Word, or were there no poor, persecuted Christians whom you ought to have fed, clothed and visited?

15. We ought really to be ashamed of ourselves, having had the example of parents, ancestors, lords and kings, princes and others, who gave so liberally and charitably, even in profusion, to churches, ministers, schools, endowments, hospitals and the like; and by such liberal giving neither they nor their descendants were made poorer. What would they have done, had they had the light of the Gospel, that is given unto us? How did the Apostles and their followers in the beginning bring all they had-for their poor widows, or for those who had nothing, or who were banished and persecuted, in order that no one among them might suffer for the necessities of life! In this way poor Christians should at all times support one another. Otherwise, as I have said, the Gospel, the pulpit, churches and schools would already be completely exterminated, no matter how much the rest of the world did.

Were it not for the grace of God, by which he gives us here and there a pious prince, or godly government, which preserves the fragments still left, that all may not be destroyed by the graspers and vultures, thieves and robbers; were it not for this grace, I say, the poor pastors and preachers would not only be starved, but also murdered. Nor are there now any other poor people than those who serve, or are being trained to serve the church; and these can obtain no support elsewhere, and must leave their poor wives and children die of hunger because of an indifferent world; on the other hand the world is full of useless, unfaithful, wicked fellows among daylaborers, lazy mechanics, servants, maids, and idle, greedy beggars, who everywhere by lying, deceiving, robbing and stealing, take away the hardearned bread and butter from those who are really poor, and yet go unpunished in the midst of their wantonness and insolence.

16. This I say, that we may see how Christ will upbraid the false liars and hypocrites among Christians, on the day of judgment, and having convicted them before all creatures will condemn them, because they have done none of the works which even the heathen do to their fellows; who did much more in their false and erroneous religion, and would have done it even more willingly had they known better.

17. Since now this terrible condemnation is justly pronounced over those who neglected these works, what will happen to those who have not only neglected the same, have given nothing to the poor Christians, nor served them; but robbed them of what they had, drove them to hunger, thirst and nakedness, furthermore persecuted, scattered, imprisoned, and murdered them? These are so unutterably wicked, so utterly condemned to the bottomless pit with the devil and his angels, that Christ will not think or speak of them. But he will assuredly not forget these robbers, tyrants, and bloodhounds any more than he will forget or pass over unrewarded those who have suffered hunger thirst, nakedness, persecution and the like, especially for his and his Word’s sake. He will not forget those to whom mercy has been shown, even though he speaks only to those who have shown mercy and have lent their aid; for he highly and nobly commends them, when he says. “Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me.”

18. On account of this judgment fear and trembling might well seize our great spiritual prelates, as they call themselves, the popes, cardinals, bishops, canons, priests, and the whole diabolical rabble of the antichristian crowd at Rome, and everywhere, in their monasteries and brothels, if they were not altogether hardened and deliberately given to Satan, body and soul. They think and act as though they were especially appointed to snatch to themselves every thing that belongs to the poor church, and in their own wantonness to consume, spend, waste, squander, in dissipation, gambling and debauchery, in the most shameful and scandalous maner, whatever has been given for the maintenance of students, schools and the poor people. They mock God and man, Peter 2:13; yea, they publicly murder innocent, pious people.

19. Yea, woe, another and eternal woe, to them and to all who side with them. For it had been better for them, had they never been born, as Christ says of Judas. Therefore they ought rather to wish that their mothers had drowned them in their first bath, or that they had never come forth from the womb, than that one of them should have become pope or cardinal or a popish priest. For they are nothing else than merely desperate and select ones, not highway robbers, but public country-thieves, who take, not the goods of the mighty and the powerful that really have something, but of the poor and wretched, of the parish-churches, schools, and hospitals, whose morsels are snatched from their teeth, and whose drink is torn from their mouths, so that they are unable to maintain life.

20. Therefore let every man beware of the Pope, the bishops, and the priesthood, as he would beware of those who have already been condemned alive to the abyss of perdition. Truly Paul did not prophesy in vain, 2 Timothy 3:1, that in the last days perilous times shall come. Yet all the world moves along indifferently and gives no heed to this terrible judgment that has already been decided against such unmerciful robbers, thieves, and murderers of poor Christians, but especially against those who pretend to be Christians, who after having received grace slide back again, and like a dog eat their own vomit, or as the swine wallow in their own filth, 2 Peter 2:20-22, and thus, having been first, become last before anyone is aware of it.

21. The second reason why Christ especially mentions these works of mercy and their omission, from the fifth commandment, is, that he wishes to remind us, who have been called to be Christians, have received mercy through our Lord, have been redeemed from the wrath of God and the guilt of the fifth commandment and from eternal death, and on the contrary have a gracious God, who is good to us in time and in eternity, to remind us, I say, to look upon all this and regard it as having been done not only for our salvation but also for an example. For, since he has shown us such mercy as to save us, we are also to act toward our neighbor in a manner as not to transgress against the fifth commandment, which especially demands love and mercy.

And we are not to do these things simply because of the commandment and of the threatening of judgment, but for the sake of the example of the excellent and great goodness God has shown. For this example cannot be without blessed results, as God’s work of redemption is not without power and good fruit. Although most people become worse from having heard the Gospel, there must nevertheless be some who rightly understand it and remain faithful to it; for he says that he will separate them into two flocks; therefore there must also be pious ones who have kept this commandment.

22. Therefore see to it that you are among those who are kind and merciful here upon earth for Christ’s sake, or who even suffer for his sake, then you may joyfully await the last day, and need not be afraid of the judgment; for he has already selected you and placed you among those who shall stand at his right hand.

23. For we, who are Christians, should hope for the coming of this judgment and desire it with our whole heart; as we pray for it in the words:

Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, deliver us from evil; so that we may also hear the glad and welcome words: Come, ye blessed, into the kingdom of my Father. This is the verdict we await; for this reason we are Christians, and just for the sake of this hope we are so severely oppressed, first by Satan and by our own flesh, which would not have us believe this and rejoice over it; then by the tyranny and enmity of the world. For we must constantly see and hear the maliciousness which Satan and the world practice against the Gospel. There is so much misery upon earth that we ought to be tired of this life and cry aloud: Come, dear Lord, and deliver us.

24. For there are certainly souls who are joyfully and with a good conscience awaiting the judgment of Christ; for they are in the rank and fellowship of those who believe in Christ, and who show fruits of faith through charity and beneficence toward the poor, or through patience in suffering with them. For, as I have said, he who does not have faith will not do works of mercy to Christians, but he who does them, will do them because he believes that he has a faithful Savior and Redeemer in Christ, who has reconciled him to God. Therefore he must have also a kind, loving heart toward his neighbors, even toward his enemies, and serve them in every time of need. Yea, he endures also, as I have just said, those things which come upon him from the world and the devil on account of his faith.

Whosoever is thus minded, I say, let him be joyful and of good courage; for he has already the blessed and joyful verdict: Come, thou blessed one, for thou hast also been one of the least of my brethren, who hast thyself suffered hunger and thirst, or who hast served the other hungry and thirsty ones, and hast shown mercy, as I have done.

25. Behold, therefore, the separation of the sheep and goats is already made in this life, so that every one can experience it internally and must indicate and show it also externally. For they who have not faith will surely do none of these things: they will neither comfort themselves with the grace of Christ, nor think of exercising mercy; they pass by the Word of God and their neighbor, as though they neither saw nor heard anything; they do not care to know that there is a Lord whom they are to serve and who will demand such service from them. For if they would consider that they must die, and appear before this judgment seat, they would not at the time defraud any one of a farthing. But, on the contrary, they think best to turn their eyes away from death and to keep the heart from thinking of it.

26. The world is so blind and hardened, that it can see before its eyes the great mass of men of all kinds who have passed away, and who are daily passing away, but is unwilling to behold it with seeing eyes, and to heed it, but continues securely and gaily in its wickedness. Furthermore, when it hears of the terrible judgment and condemnation that shall come upon it, it gives no heed to the consolation and example offered through Christ, but practices all kinds of unmercifulness; strives to hear and will have nothing else than the terrible, irrevocable verdict pronounced upon it from the judgment seat of Christ, and immediately after be cast from his presence into eternal hell-fire.

27. Wherefore he who may yet be converted and is ready to listen, will have enough, both to frighten and warn him, and to animate and persuade him to accommodate himself to the Word and example of Christ, while there is time and opportunity, so that he need not hear with the world this dreadful judgment, but may have joy and comfort in mercy with all Christians. Nor did Christ spare his Apostles, but earnestly admonished them, when he said in Luke 21:34-36: “Take heed to yourselves, lest haply your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life,” which, he shows, will be most prevalent at the end of the world,” and that day come on you suddenly as a snare; but watch ye at every season, making supplication, that ye may prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man,” etc.

28. Notice, however, as I said, that he wishes to distinguish the good works of the Christians from the works of the Turks and the heathen. For he speaks of the works done unto him, of which both parties claim to be ignorant, the wicked excusing themselves, because they had not seen him, etc. But herewith he has most beautifully explained the fifth commandment, that it means, he who fulfills it can be none else than a believing Christian, who did it unto Christ. Thus the woman who anointed his head and feet, Matthew 26:10-13, fulfilled this commandment and is praised by him when he says: “She has wrought a good work upon me. For ye have the poor always with you, and if ye wish ye can always do good unto them, but me ye have not always. Verily I say unto you, wheresoever this Gospel shall be preached in the whole world, that also which this woman hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her.” Again in Matthew 10:42: “And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones, who believe in me, a cup of cold water, he shall in no wise lose his reward.”

29. We should therefore impress the fact upon our hearts and consider that it is a great and fine thing to do good to a Christian; but on the contrary also, what it is to do evil to him, as I said of the Pope, the bishops, the tyrants, and feudal nobility, who take from the feet of Christ what they have not given him the food, the drink, the lodging and the support of the poor, who are poor for Christ’s sake, because they are not in the position, as ministers, sextons and school masters, to rule the world; nor are they able to engage in any other business in which they might gain a livelihood; for then they would also have been made the partakers of power and would receive enough. But since they have no part in the government, the world gives them nothing for their services. As they receive nothing for God’s nor Christ’s sake, they can have nothing, and must leave behind them poor, wretched widows and orphans.

30. Those in other positions and offices, who have plenty in all respects, do not wish and cannot attend to the duties and the services of the church, neither do they know how. And when ministers and pastors engage in worldly trades and pursuits, they step outside of their proper calling.

Therefore they must be supported, if they are to have anything to eat, from beggary, of which Christ here speaks; but he makes it so precious that whosoever gives meat or drink to the least of his members on earth, he recognizes the same as though it had been done and given to himself. Do we wish then to be Christians, and expect from Christ the honor to be praised and rewarded in the presence of all creatures, we must, indeed, cheerfully and gratuitously give to those who are to perform the duties of their office gratuitously, because they can have no share in secular matters.

This we are to do in order to escape the curse and wrath that will come upon those who would not have mercy on their poor brethren, who had to suffer hunger, thirst, misery, and imprisonment in the world in order to bring us to Christ.

31. But how does it happen that the righteous do not recognize and know that they have done their works unto Christ? They say: Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, etc.? The reason is, that to give something to a poor minister, chaplain, teacher, sexton is regarded as a matter altogether of too small significance to be so precious in the sight of God. Yea the world looks upon it as so much money thrown away. Yet will any one say that the world would be so much richer, were there no pupils, schools, hospitals? Or that it is on their account any poorer, unless it were entirely heathen, or it were, as heretofore, compelled to give enough for the devil’s sake, and allow itself to be flayed to the bone by those who have cheated it of body and soul. In short, the churches and schools receive the very least from the world; yet it is jealous, complains bitterly, and makes a great cry about what they already have, although it gives nothing, and claims to make much better use of its means, when at other times it gives a hundred times as much to shameless, dissolute villains and jugglers; it soon forgets of how much it allows brother Guy to be robbed, and then even it takes a beating in the bargain. It never enters the brain of the world to think and believe that this means to give to Christ; nor is it easy for us to see it ourselves.

32. But Christ is able to speak and judge rightly in this matter, and he knows how much depends upon it. For it is truly impossible to bring up the young in the kingdom of God in any other way than by means of schools; nor is it possible to maintain the Word of God without pulpits. Where these are allowed to fall into disuse, there will be a second Sodom and Gomorrah, which will fare as those of old, who despised the Word of God, and would not listen to nor endure pious Lot. Thus also Ezekiel, 16:48-50, prophesies of Jerusalem: “As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters. Behold, this was the iniquity of thy roster Sodom: pride, fullness of bread, and prosperous ease was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me; therefore I took them away as I saw good,” etc.

33. The same conditions now exist everywhere. Every peasant, burgher, nobleman is simply gathering dollars, waits and saves, eats and drinks, is insolent and mischievous as though God were nothing at all. No one cares for the despised Jesus in his poverty; nay, he is even tread under foot, until all obedience, discipline and honor are destroyed among us, as they were in Sodom and Gomorrah, and matters become so bad, as to become unbearable, because all admonition and preaching seem to be of no avail.

34. Right unwillingly do I prophesy; for I have often experienced how it came true; but the same conditions, alas, prevail now everywhere; and I fear and must almost resign myself that Germany may have the same experience as Sodom and Jerusalem, and will be a thing of the past; it will either be destroyed by the Turks or it will crumble by its own hand, unless the last day overtake it soon. For the present conditions are altogether unbearable and so exceedingly bad that they cannot become worse; and if there be still a God, he cannot thus let matters go on unpunished.

35. And now the world will not take heed, nor recognize that it must die and stand before God in judgment, but it rages against recognized truth.

Let us give heed and take it to heart, that the wrath of God may not also sweep us away. For what else would God need to do to that end, than let loose both the Turks and Satan against us. The Turk would be compelled to cease doing what he has done and is still doing, were we not so hardened in blindness and impenitence, and so completely ripe for judgment. The reason is that we rage so blasphemously against God’s Word and his proffered help, and then in addition make our boast against the Turk.

36. And I hold that, if we Lutherans, as they call us, were only dead, the whole world would immediately cry, “Victory,” as though they had already devoured every single Turk. But it shall happen to them also that a hundred shall be slain by one Turk. And when the cry of murder is once heard, how unmercifully the Turks will cut in pieces all people, men, women, and children. Then shall we also begin to cry and lament. It shall come to pass that we shall do as did the Jews, put Christ out of the way. When he has been crucified, we shall be able to take care of the Turk, as Squire Caiaphas and the Jews took care of the Romans; thus the younkers at Jerusalem thought, if they could only put the prophet Jeremiah out of the way, they would surely be safe from the king of Babylon. What happened?

After they had cast Jeremiah into the dungeon, the king came and led them all into captivity.

Thus I can also see that God has spun a web over Germany as it is determined to be guilty in the same manner of willful blindness, defiance, wickedness, contempt, and ungratefulness in opposing the precious Gospel. It is determined to be guilty of foolishness before God, for which it will have to pay dearly. May God preserve us, and grant us and our little flock that we may escape this terrible wrath, and be found among those who honor and serve our dear Christ, and await the judgment at his right hand joyously and blissfully. Amen.

TO THE READER:

If it should happen that another Sunday after Trinity should follow the 26th, which is very seldom the case, then it might be well to use the last preceding Epistle and Gospel for the 27th Sunday after Trinity, and on the Sunday preceding the 27th take the following text for the Epistle and the Gospel: Epistle, 2 Peter 3:3; Gospel, Matthew 24:37-51.

http://www.intrepidlutherans.com/2013/11/johann-gerhard-on-1-timothy-316.html#comment-form

Anonymous said...

If there is agreement that "Christ took upon Himself the sins of men as Guarantor in order to make satisfaction for them to the Father.” I think Paul, in Acts, is very clear that each person has to believe to be saved.
Acts 16:28-31 ESV
[28] But Paul cried with a loud voice, "Do not harm yourself, for we are all here." [29] And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. [30] Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" [31] And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Jim Roberts

NOVEMBER 20, 2013 AT 4:21 PM

Brett Meyer said...

Mr. Roberts, why was Pastor Rydecki excommunicated from the WELS for teaching and confessing that men are justified solely by faith in Christ alone?

As recorded in II Seymour 13:15 - NNIV.

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GJ - And to the point - if salvation depends on faith--in the clear, plain revelation of God's Word--then Jon-Boy Buchholz' secret revelation of universal salvation is poppycock.

We hear from jackasses all the time. But what does the fox say?

'We are church for the sake of the world,' new ELCA presiding bishop says

- See more at: http://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7626#sthash.LNDFtl3l.dpuf

I have commended Luther's Commentary on Galatians to the HuberQuest Hive, but they refuse to acknowledge or deal with Luther on John 1:29. He has a brilliant essay in that book on the meaning of the atonement.

The HuberQuesters sound like the four pit bulls on our block. When I go by the fence they bark ferociously at me. Soon they bump into each other and start snarling and snapping at their own. This escalates into such a fight that their owner opens up the back door and yells, "Shaddup out there."




UOJ simply floats by the Means of Grace, because the addled adherents have already bestowed God's grace on everyone - Hindu and Muslim, atheist and polytheist, cannibal and abortionist.

Their claims to represent or teach grace are bogus.

Dennis Boettcher, Kantor (Boettden) Senior Member Username: Boettden Post Number: 1691 Registered: 5-2004

Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2013 - 12:35 pm:      The Kokomo Statements are not referenced by the ELDONA theses. True, but if the connections are being made to ELDoNA/Rydecki/Jackson, one needs to consider the Kokomo Statements to understand where these people are coming from. Kokomo takes objective justification to the extreme, IMO. It seems to leave out the subjective aspect of justification - faith wrought by the Holy Spirit. This is why Jackson and his followers make such a heavy-handed emphasis on faith re: justification, to the point that is appears to be "justification by faith" and not "justification by grace through faith" (Ephesians 2:8). If you look at the archives that Rick Strickert provided earlier on this massive thread, you will see that every one of Jackson's followers, to a "T", argue this exact same point. They refuse to answer questions on John 1: 29, and all the rest of the passages in Scripture that refer to Christ forgiving the sins of the whole world, and rather pound the "faith, faith, faith" point home. You can't argue with them. They must all get their talking points from the head-man, and key them into their computers right from their notes. It's weird. For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. My church website About my family

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Rev. Belcher seems to be offended by the heavy emphasis on faith that can be traced to the Scriptures.

The word faith occurs 365 times in the Bible, KJV. That does not count believe or faithful.

Heavy-handed! You betcha.

The foundational sin, according to Jesus, is NOT believing in Him. John 16:8.

These lunkheads have a black belt in reciting UOJ talking points, but they are Biblical illiterates and anti-Lutheran apostates.

Hunnius exposed the false doctrine Huber's Easter Absolution. Missouri Synod founder Martin Stephan embraced it - along with many young women - and someone with the clap.

Author Message   Joe Krohn (Jester) Member Username: Jester Post Number: 194 Registered: 4-2011 Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 6:05 pm:      "Joe, an infant has the forgiveness of all sins when he/she trusts in Christ alone, that trust is Christ's faith worked by the Holy Spirit through the Word and water of baptism." A sacrament is the forgiveness of sins, Brett. Go back and read your catechism. A sacrament isn't something that takes effect later.   Dennis Belcher, Kantor (Boettden) Senior Member Username: Boettden Post Number: 1688 Registered: 5-2004 Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 6:32 pm:      Ephesians 2: 8-10 (NKJV) -- 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. What does this mean? For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. My church website About my family   Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 128 Registered: 1-2008 Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 7:45 pm:      Mr. Prange, by this statement, “whether it's a person who has faith in Christ worked through the Word or the unbelieving newborn child” I was simply including anyone in ‘a person’: an unbelieving infant, child, boy, girl, man, woman or an unbaptized but believing infant, child, boy, girl, man, woman. I confess that the only person who is forgiven in baptism is the one who does not reject the faith which the Holy Spirit works through the Word and water. The BOC quote you provide is directly at the validity and efficacy of baptism as a Sacrament, visible means and God’s Word, and is not speaking of the result, ie: faith in Christ alone and the forgiveness of sins. The Large Catechism confirms my contention when it states, 53] …Now, Baptism does not become invalid even though it be wrongly received or employed; since it is not bound (as stated) to our faith, but to the Word. 54] For even though a Jew should to-day come dishonestly and with evil purpose, and we should baptize him in all good faith, we must say that his baptism is nevertheless genuine. For here is the water together with the Word of God, even though he does not receive it as he should, just as those who unworthily go to the Sacrament receive the true Sacrament, even through they do not believe.” And note again in Holy Communion those taking Christ’s body and blood without faith in Christ alone – take it to their condemnation – not to their forgiveness of sins as the doctrine of UOJ teaches. Further the Large Catechism states, “57] Thus we do also in infant baptism. We bring the child in the conviction and hope that it believes, and we pray that God may grant it faith; but we do not baptize it upon that, but solely upon the command of God.” Again, baptism works faith, godly contrition over sin and faith in Christ alone. Through the Holy Spirit’s faith the child is washed clean of all sin, regenerated as a child of God and saved eternally. The Small Catechism I quoted in a comment above, it states, “What does Baptism give or profit? Answer: It works forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.” Baptism works the forgivness of sins through faith in Christ which baptism creates and thereby regenerating the individual. The catechism goes on to state, “Which are such words and promises of God? Answer: Christ, our Lord, says in the last chapter of Mark: he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” Your contention would have it read, “, but he that believeth not shall be forgiven all sin and damned.” Again, the catechism goes on to state, “How can water do such great things? Answer: It is not the water indeed that does them,but the word of God which is in and with the water, and faith, which trusts such word of Godin the water.” I believe my contention and confession stands against the doctrine of UOJ. As I said before – Christ paid for the sin of unbelief. So when the doctrine of UOJ teaches that the whole world of unbelievers have been forgiven all sin, that forgiveness includes their sin of unbelief. So UOJ teaches unbelievers will go to Hell for eternity if they don’t believe that God forgave them for their unbelief. Please explain how UOJ can teach such a thing… Joe, I believe my answer above corrects your misunderstanding. If you don’t find that convincing then I quote from the Apology of the Augsburg Confession: Article XIII. Of the Number and Use of the Sacraments. 1] In the Thirteenth Article the adversaries approve our statement that the Sacraments are not only marks of profession among men, as some imagine, but they are rather sings and testimonies of God’s will toward us, through which God moves hearts to believe. 3] If we call Sacraments rites which have the command of God, and to which the promise of grace has been added, it is easy to decide what are properly Sacraments.” Remember Joe, contrary to what you are teaching, Holy Communion taken by an unbeliever doesn’t impart forgiveness but rather God’s condemnation and wrath. That itself should be sufficient to show you your error. Mr. Boettcher, what does it mean when placed beside these two verses: Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.   Joe Krohn (Jester) Member Username: Jester Post Number: 195 Registered: 4-2011 Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 8:37 pm:      "Remember Joe, contrary to what you are teaching, Holy Communion taken by an unbeliever doesn’t impart forgiveness but rather God’s condemnation and wrath. That itself should be sufficient to show you your error." No, Brett. The forgiveness of sins is still there as a gift. The unbeliever is condemned already for his rejection of the gift. Back to Baptism...Baptism as a means of grace offers and gives us the forgiveness of sins. It works these blessings because of what Christ has earned; the forgiveness of all men's sins. These blessings are made our own by the Holy Ghost in Baptism. Faith can not be worked without the blessing of the forgiveness of sins. (Small Cat., Pg 197 & 198; copyright 1956, NPH...originally edited by Gausewitz.)   Franz Linden (Franz_mann) Senior Member Username: Franz_mann Post Number: 1796 Registered: 12-2004 Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 8:49 pm:      Brett Meyer writes: Remember Joe, contrary to what you are teaching, Holy Communion taken by an unbeliever doesn’t impart forgiveness but rather God’s condemnation and wrath. There's a thoroughly Lutheran teaching - Christ instituted the Lord's Supper to impart God's condemnation and wrath. Wow! Did you read that, Pastor Jackson? Your pupil believes that the means of grace are for imparting wrath and condemnation. This is where your denial of universal objective justification has lead him. Franz   Dennis Belcher, Kantor (Boettden) Senior Member Username: Boettden Post Number: 1689 Registered: 5-2004 Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 8:50 pm:      You tell me. I asked you first. I don't need you to blather over all of your faith passages. Most of us have heard quite enough from you. You have refused to engage in our questions, but rather, like Jackson your idol and all of his other minions, prefer to deflect the conversation to the FAITH, FAITH, FAITH, FAITH, FAITH passages. I would venture to say that nobody on this thread disagrees with the two passages above. Nobody on this thread disagrees with the fact that nobody is saved without faith in Jesus Christ as his/her only Savior from sin. Our contention is with this: What is your salvation based upon? Is it based upon what Christ has done to take your sin away (John 1: 29) ... or is it based on your faith? Did Jesus lie when He said on the cross, "It is finished?" Did John lie when he said of Jesus, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world?" Did Paul lie when he said, "By grace are ye saved ..." or should have he said "By faith are ye saved..."? Did John lie when he spoke of Jesus, "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world?" No more deflection, Brett. Answer the plain and simple questions. For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. My church website About my family   Rev. Guillaume Williams (Revhardened) Senior Member Username: Revhardheaded Post Number: 4790 Registered: 10-2004 Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 9:22 pm:      By grace I’m saved, grace free and boundless; My soul, believe and doubt it not. Why stagger at this word of promise? Has Scripture ever falsehood taught? No; then this word must true remain; By grace you too will life obtain. By grace God’s Son, our only Savior, Came down to earth to bear our sin. Was it because of your own merit That Jesus died your soul to win? No, it was grace, and grace alone, That brought him from his heavenly throne. By grace! This ground of faith is certain; As long as God is true, it stands. What saints have penned by inspiration, What in his word our God commands, Our faith in what our God has done Depends on grace - grace through his Son. By grace to timid hearts that tremble, In tribulation’s furnace tried, By grace, in spite of fear and trouble, The Father’s heart is open wide. Where could I help and strength secure If grace were not my anchor sure? By grace! On this I’ll rest when dying; In Jesus’ promise I rejoice; For though I know my heart’s condition, I also know my Savior’s voice. My heart is glad, all grief has flown Since I am saved by grace alone. In what is my faith grounded? The Rev. Guillaume J. S. Williams, Sr Put Mass Back In Christmas!   Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 129 Registered: 1-2008 Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 10:32 pm:      Joe teaches in harmony with the doctrine of UOJ, “Faith can not be worked without the blessing of the forgiveness of sins.” No Joe. You remain in error. But you are faithful to the false gospel of UOJ. Luke 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee. James 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesusseeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. Mr. Linden, the Sacrament of Holy Communion distributes Christ’s body and blood for the forgiveness of sins. What it is for is the forgiveness of sins. What it imparts depends upon whether the one receiving it has faith in Christ alone or does not have faith. You teach that unbelievers who unworthily take Christ’s body and blood receive the forgiveness of sins and condemnation for the sin of partaking of Christ’s body and blood unworthily. Those who receive Christ’s body and blood with faith receive the forgiveness of sins. Those who receive Christ’s body and blood as unbelievers receive God’s condemnation and wrath. 1 Corinthians 11:29, “For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.” Same goes for the doctrine of UOJ which teaches God declares the unbelieving world forgiven and righteous in Christ. As LQ’s self-proclaimed grammatician you should know there’s a difference in meaning between the words, “distributes”, “for” and “imparts”. Mr. Boettcher demands answers to the following questions: Our contention is with this: What is your salvation based upon? Is it based upon what Christ has done to take your sin away (John 1: 29) ... or is it based on your faith?  Salvation is based upon faith in Christ alone. Salvation is not based upon a declaration of absolution that supposedly occurred without the Means of Grace, upon the unbelieving world. John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: Did Jesus lie when He said on the cross, "It is finished?"  No Jesus didn’t lie. The iniquity of us all was laid upon Christ, Christ paid for the whole world’s sins and God the Father accepted Christ’s payment as confirmed in His resurrection. Christ’s payment for the world’s sins was not the absolution of the unbelieving world. Did John lie when he said of Jesus, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world?"  No, John did not lie. Christ paid for the world’s sins. Does that mean that Christ took them away in the sense that they were no longer on the world? Let’s consult the inspired book of John. John 8:24, “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” Ephesians 2:1, “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;” Nope, clearly Christ did not remove them from the world but indeed He paid for them. Sins are only removed by the righteousness of Christ which is only through the gracious gift of faith in Christ alone. Revelation 1:5, “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,” Did Paul lie when he said, "By grace are ye saved ..." or should have he said "By faith are ye saved..."?  No, Paul didn’t lie. Actually Paul did say by faith are ye saved in Romans, “it is of faith, that it might be by grace;” The unbelieving world is not in God’s grace as UOJ would have everyone believe. The unbelieving world remains under God’s wrath and condemnation. Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace. Luke 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee. 1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, Did John lie when he spoke of Jesus, "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world?"  No, John didn’t lie. He is the Propitiation for the whole world if they have faith in Christ and thereby obtain Christ as Mediator. But Christ is only obtained as our Propitiation and Mediator through faith alone. Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;   James Wobble (Wobble) Member Username: Wobble Post Number: 144 Registered: 1-2013 Posted on Thursday, November 14, 2013 - 11:11 pm:      Mr. Meyer, surely you should understand by now the concern that many of your opponents have expressed, namely, that your doctrine erroneously attributes to faith the activating catalyst of the gospel's efficacy. Surely in light of what has been articulated so far, you can see why it might be leveled against you that you deny the gospel, since it is clear that you deny the object of faith to be anextra nos event - a one-time, historical declaration of God when he raised Christ from the dead, upon which every utterance of the gospel is based and from which every absolution receives its validity. Surely, at least, you can see the concern that serves as the basis for such unanimous opposition against you. It is concern for the gospel (objectively complete, subjectively apprehended). Yet you have said nothing to allay such concern. You have only contradicted and prooftexted with passages that your opponents interpret otherwise according to their context. But you have not engaged the concern, which is roundly claimed to be an evangelical concern, hence our zeal. What I cannot understand is your zeal. You say that our doctrine of justification is a false gospel(derisively labeled UOJ). How so? What is your concern? Certainly you do not accuse us of being universalists, do you? Are you concerned about a lack of emphasis on faith? Then say so, and make your case. Are there implications to what our churches teach that might undermine the glory of the gospel? Then explain. You have not shown at all how your concern is for the sake of defending the good news that the sinner is justified by grace alone through faith. What violence to the gospel does our gospel wreak? You say it is a false gospel. What do you mean? What do you claim the object of saving faith to be?   Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 130 Registered: 1-2008 Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 12:07 am:      Mr. Warble, I have confessed repeatedly that the object of Christ's faith, worked graciously by the Holy Spirit solely through the Means of Grace is Christ. (John 6:47, John 3:36, Mark 16:16, John 3:16, John 11:25) Christ is Extra Nos. God didn't make a one-time, historical declaration that the whole unbelieving world is forgiven and righteous in Christ. Therefore the object of UOJ's faith is false which makes it a false gospel. I understand that the gospel of UOJ is the antithesis of the Gospel of Justification solely by Faith In Christ Alone. I am not attempting to allay anyone's concern. I am contending for Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions. UOJ stands for Universal Objective Justification. It's not derisive. I haven't accused you of being Universalists. If God's declaration that unbelievers are absolved of all sin is actually true, and that because of that divine and omnipotent declaration they really are absolved of all sin, and the forgiveness of sins resulted in eternal salvation - then yes, everyone confessing the gospel of UOJ would be a Universalist. But according to UOJ God can declare someone forgiven of all sin but they aren't until they believe they are - interesting religion. I'm not concerned with a lack of emphasis on faith but I contend against UOJ's description of faith as an empty hand. Scripture and the BOC faithfully confirms that Christ's faith is righteousness, of which Christ is the Author and Finisher. UOJ perverts the faith of Scripture. I've covered the implications in this discussion and many others - of which most are familiar. Please read through this discussion to see that I've addressed all of your questions. Mr. Warble, would you explain this circular teaching of UOJ (I've requested an explanation above but as yet no one has addressed it): UOJ teaches that the whole world of unbelievers have been forgiven all sin, that forgiveness includes their sin of unbelief. So UOJ teaches unbelievers will go to Hell for eternity if they don’t believe that God forgave them for their unbelief.   James Wobble (Wobble) Member Username: Wobble Post Number: 145 Registered: 1-2013 Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 1:04 am:      Mr. Meyer. You say the object of faith is Christ. What do you mean? How do the Means of Grace give us Christ? What does faith do with Christ? When God gives us faith through the gospel, does he say anything about this Christ whom he gives? Does he give some sort of indication as to the how he regards us on account of what Christ has done? Didn't Christ come to reveal the Father? What does he reveal? Does Christ not pray that we would believe in him, the only true God, and him whom he sent? Does he reveal a God who makes an offer or a God who has been propitiated. You say faith's object is Christ. But do we not place our faith in something that the Father says concerning sinners for whose sins Christ made satisfaction? Or do we place our faith in the power of faith to effect the gospel? You ask me to explain what you call circular. You are confused. You have yet to reckon with the distinction between God speaking and faith apprehending. You make the former dependent on the latter. God damns those who refuse what God says. What does God say? What is it that the reprobate refuse? A deal? or Christ, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world?   James Wobble (Wobble) Member Username: Wobble Post Number: 146 Registered: 1-2013 Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 1:13 am:      God didn't make a one-time, historical declaration that the whole unbelieving world is forgiven and righteous in Christ.  Who are you quoting? To speak in terms of "in Christ" is usually to speak of faith (Romans 8:1, Galatians 3:28). There is a distinction between in Christo and propter Christum. You seem to be purposely misrepresenting what many on this thread have confessed.   George Mueller (Mueller) Senior Member Username: Mueller Post Number: 1076 Registered: 11-2012 Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 7:44 am:      I am contending for Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions. Brett Meyer No, you are not. I showed you yesterday (more than once!) what the Lutheran Confessions teach about the object of faith. Let me cite from the Augsburg Confession once more, with emphasis added: Our churches also teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works but are freely justified for Christ’s sake through faith when they believe that they are received into favor and that their sins are forgiven on account of Christ, who by his death made satisfaction for our sins. This faith God imputes for righteousness in his sight (Rom. 3-4). I have bolded the object of faith. In response to this you falsely wrote that forgiveness is the result of faith and that we are forgiven on account of faith. But I showed you where we Lutherans teach that we are forgiven on account of Christ, who by his death made satisfaction for our sins. I showed you that faith simply receives and you rejected that biblical and confessional teaching in favor of the false teaching that faith causes God to forgive us. Notice, Brett, that I am not saying a word here about objective or subjective justification. I am sticking to the language of the Lutheran Confessions. You claim that you adhere to the doctrine of the Confessions. I have shown you that you do not. You reject the teaching of the Augsburg Confession as I have repeatedly shown.   George Mueller (Mueller) Senior Member Username: Mueller Post Number: 1077 Registered: 11-2012 Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 8:02 am:      Brett, check this out for yourself. Read through the Bible wherever it speaks of justification. It talks about justification through faith. It does not talk about justification because of faith. The role of faith in justification is receptive. It receives. It doesn't cause something to be or become. What causes forgiveness? When you make faith the cause what does this do to the real cause, namely, the grace of God and the vicarious satisfaction of Jesus?   Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 131 Registered: 1-2008 Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 9:33 am:      Mr. Warbel, I’ll answer a few of your many questions. Mr. Meyer. You say the object of faith is Christ. What do you mean? The faith that the Holy Spirit works solely through the Means of Grace trusts in Christ alone for the forgiveness of sins and eternal life. The object of faith is not a supposed declaration from God that I was absolved of all sin before I was born. WELS UOJ theologian Jon Buchholz admitted this in his 2005 WELS Convention essay. The following three quotes are his, "God has forgiven the whole world. God has forgiven everyone his sins." This statement is absolutely true! This is the heart of the gospel, and it must be preached and taught as the foundation of our faith. But here’s where the caveat comes in: In Scripture, the word "forgive" is used almost exclusively in a personal, not a universal sense. The Bible doesn’t make the statement, "God has forgiven the world." "God has forgiven all sins, but the unbeliever rejects God’s forgiveness." Again, this statement is true—and Luther employed similar terminology to press the point of Christ’s completed work of salvation.16 <b>But we must also recognize that Scripture doesn’t speak this way</b>." "God has declared the entire world righteous." This statement is true, as we understand it to mean that God has rendered a verdict of "not-guilty" toward the entire world. It is also true—and must be taught—that the righteousness of Christ now stands in place of the world’s sin; this is the whole point of what Jesus did for us at Calvary. However, once again we’re wresting a term out of its usual context. In Scripture the term "righteous" usually refers to believers. " What does faith do with Christ?  Faith apprehends Christ as Mediator and Propitiation. Mediator between sinful man and God’s wrath and condemnation over our sin. Propitiation for our sins because Christ paid the price God’s perfect justice required. A better question is what does Christ do with faith. Scripture reveals and the BOC confirms that faith is Christ’s righteousness by which a man dies to sin, washed of his crimson rags, is clothed in Christ’s righteousness, receives the inheritance as a child of God – brother of Christ, is regenerated becoming spiritually minded, is in God’s grace, is justified and eternally saved. When God gives us faith through the gospel, does he say anything about this Christ whom he gives?  Yes, God declares in Scripture that Christ is God and man. That the iniquity of the whole world was laid upon Him and He made total and complete satisfaction for those sins. Not that Christ became guilty of those sins but that the sins were laid upon Him and He paid the penalty for those sins. His resurrection is proof that God the Father accepted Christ’s payment. All righteousness resides in Christ and never apart from Him. Therefore whoever believes on Christ receives His righteousness for the forgiveness of sins and eternal Life. Does he give some sort of indication as to the how he regards us on account of what Christ has done?  Yes. When an individual is in Christ through faith God the Father regards him as His own child who then receives all that is Christ’s, righteousness, the forgiveness of sins and eternal Life. In summary - the inheritance that Christ has won. Outside of Christ through unbelief the world is not in Christ and therefore God the Father does not regard us as being in Christ and therefore the unbelieving world remains solely under God’s wrath and condemnation. Does he reveal a God who makes an offer or a God who has been propitiated?  Since Christ is our propitiation through faith alone - Romans 3:25, “Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;” God is not propitiated except through faith which apprehends Christ as our Propitiation and Mediator. Mr. Warbel, you make an issue of my statement that UOJ declares the whole unbelieving world to be righteous and absolved of all sin “in Christ”. If it’s not in Christ that this righteousness comes from – where is it? Are you trying to say that God declared the whole unbelieving world to be righteous and absolved of all sin outside of Christ? Where is that righteousness that God must see them in and with in order to declare them righteous? Men are only in Christ through faith alone. Therefore by faith alone is anyone accounted as righteous before God. Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: Romans 5:2, “By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Romans 5:1, “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with Godthrough our Lord Jesus Christ:   Rev. David R. Boisclair (Drboisclair) Intermediate Member Username: Drboisclair Post Number: 376 Registered: 1-2002 Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 9:58 am:      Thankyou, Mr. Warble, for seeing the derisiveness and derogatory nature of the abbreviations started by Greg Jackson to belittle the scriptural doctrine of Objective Justification. Along with slandering Christian people on his "No Glory ..." (Ichabod) website he also blasphemes the true faith. It is for that reason that I avoid the silly abbreviation game. As you can see as well, there is the constant use of Scripture and Confession quotations asserting Subjective Justification that are used to confute Objective Justification. What all of this is purely and simply is a failure to properly distinguish Law and Gospel. By denying the scriptural doctrine of Objective Justification Greg Jackson and his disciples have limited the Gospel with the Law. That's why Jude 3 is alive and well here. Brett Meyer has opened a door in his 12:52 a.m. post of yesterday, end of the second/third paragraph: 'UOJ’s faith clings to a false declaration – no wonder you teach an individual should not look to his faith for comfort – your faith is in a false object that never occurred and not in Christ alone. No wonder UOJists find no comfort from faith for they do not have the faith of the Holy Spirit who teaches in 2 Corinthians 13:5, “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?”' Note that the point that he is making is that since, as he maintains, Objective Justification is a nonentity we who teach it would naturally avoid putting our faith in a faith in a nonentity. In this statement there is an implicit placing of faith in faith or a comfort in faith on the part of Brett. Those who agree with Brett, Greg Jackson, Rydecki, and, now, sadly, ELDoNA, locate the completion of our redemption, i.e. our Justification, within us. Faith loses its instrumental character and becomes the act that effects Justification. What an irony in all of this! Brett/Jackson/Rydecki/ELDoNA bluster that their faith is in Christ, but their faith is really in their faith. The conditional "Gospel" that they peddle is expressed in these words of Brett: 'I believe and confess in accord with Scripture and harmony with the Lutheran Confessions that God has promised to be reconciled to, absolve, justify, declare righteous, adopt as children and save eternally all those who by the gracious gift of faith trust in Christ alone.' No, Brett, God has reconciled Himself to the world in Christ's completed work of 2000 years ago. The mission now is to have the Holy Spirit regenerate the unbelieving through the means of grace: "Be reconciled to God." 2 Corinthians 5:18-21 is the impregnable, mighty fortress that affirms BOTH facets of Justification: Objective and Subjective. All they can do is explain that Scripture and other Scriptures away.   Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 132 Registered: 1-2008 Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 10:18 am:      BOC: 71] But when it is said that faith justifies, some perhaps understand it of the beginning, namely, that faith is the beginning of justification or preparation for justification, so that not faith itself is that through which we are accepted by God, Apology of the Augsburg Confession, That Faith in Christ Justifies. http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justificati on.php Martin Luther’s quotes from his Commentary On Galatians “In the sight of God, Abraham was a condemned sinner. That he was justified before God was not due to his own exertions, but due to his faith.” Verse 6 “The faith of the fathers in the Old Testament era, and our faith in the New Testament are one and the same faith in Christ Jesus, although times and conditions may differ.” Verse 6 “Are you surprised that reason thinks little of faith? Reason thinks it ludicrous that faith should be the foremost service any person can render unto God.” Verse 6 "The Scriptures ascribe no righteousness to Abraham except through faith." Verse 8 “Paul means to imply the contrast that all nations are accursed without faith in Christ.” Verse 9 “Paul goes on to prove from this quotation out of the Book of Deuteronomy that all men who are under the Law are under the sentence of sin, of the wrath of God, and of everlasting death.” Verse 10 “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse. The curse of God is like a flood that swallows everything that is not of faith. To avoid the curse we must hold on to the promise of the blessing in Christ.” Verse10 “I cannot tell you in words how criminal it is to seek righteousness before God without faith in Christ” Verse 10 “In observing the Law for the purpose of obtaining righteousness without faith in Christ these law workers go smack against the Law and against God. They deny the righteousness of God, His mercy, and His promises. They deny Christ and all His benefits.” Verse 10 “By faith Christ changes places with us. He gets our sins, we get His holiness.” Verse 13 “By faith alone can we become righteous, for faith invests us with the sinlessness of Christ.” Verse 13 12. As before said, they regard faith of slight importance; for they do not understand that it is our sole justifier. To accept as true the record of Christ--this they call faith. The devils have the same sort of faith, but it does not make them godly. Such belief is not Christian faith; no, it is rather deception. 15. ...You see how they make faith of no value to themselves, and so must regard as heresy all doctrine based upon it. Thus they do away with the whole Gospel. These are they who deny the Christian faith and exterminate it from the world. Paul prophesied concerning them when he said (1 Tim 4, 1): "In later times some shall fall away from the faith." The voice of faith is now silenced all over the world. Indeed, faith is condemned and banished as the worst heresy, and all who teach and endorse it are condemned with it. The Pope, the bishops, charitable institutions, cloisters, high schools, unanimously opposed it for nearly four hundred years, and simply drove the world violently into hell. Their conduct is the real persecution by Antichrist, in the last times. 22. Now, the Cain-like saints have not, as they themselves confess, the Christian faith which would assure them of being the children of God. 29. You cannot extricate yourself from unbelief, nor can the Law do it for you. All your works in intended fulfilment of the Law must remain works of the Law and powerless to justify in the sight of God, who regards as just only believing children. 37. Note, Paul everywhere teaches justification, not by works, but solely by faith; and not as a process, but instantaneous. The testament includes in itself everything--justification, salvation, the inheritance and great blessing. Through faith it is instantaneously enjoyed, not in part, but all. Truly is it plain, then, that faith alone affords such blessings of God, justification and salvation-- immediately and not in process as must be the case with works 74. But what is the process whereby Christ gives us such a spirit and redeems us from under the Law? The work is effected solely by faith. He who believes that Christ came to redeem us, and that he has accomplished it, is really redeemed. As he believes, so is it with him. Faith carries with it the child-making spirit. The apostle here explains by saying that Christ has redeemed us from under the Law that we might receive the adoption of sons. As before stated, all must be effected through faith. Now we have discussed the five points of the verse. http://www.trinitylutheranms.org/MartinLuther/MLSe rmons/Galatians4_1_7.html   Rev. David R. Boisclair (Drboisclair) Intermediate Member Username: Drboisclair Post Number: 377 Registered: 1-2002 Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 10:32 am:      Oh, and by the way, I appreciated what Daniel Gorman pointed out previously in faulting ELDoNA for not coming out and saying that they reject "This We Believe" (WELS) and "The Brief Statement" (LCMS) on the doctrine of Justification. Instead they make Francis Pieper their whipping boy. Thank God, we are justified by grace (Objective) through faith (Subjective).   D. Jerome Klotz (Jerome) Member Username: Jerome Post Number: 157 Registered: 2-2013 Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 10:34 am:      Mr. Meyer, Read your Luther quote again: "He who believes that Christ came to redeem us [subjective], AND THAT HE HAS ACCOMPLISHED IT [objective], is really redeemed." Pax Christi, Jerome lawandpromise.blogspot.com   Pr. Don Kirchner (Kirchner) Senior Member Username: Kirchner Post Number: 3575 Registered: 11-2001 Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 10:41 am:      As I said before – Christ paid for the sin of unbelief. So when the doctrine of UOJ teaches that the whole world of unbelievers have been forgiven all sin, that forgiveness includes their sin of unbelief. So UOJ teaches unbelievers will go to Hell for eternity if they don’t believe that God forgave them for their unbelief. Please explain how UOJ can teach such a thing… Yes, Christ paid for the sin of unbelief too. Some reject that forgiveness, they reject the gift, and bring damnation upon themselves. This really is basic stuff, Mr. Meyer.   George Mueller (Mueller) Senior Member Username: Mueller Post Number: 1078 Registered: 11-2012 Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 11:08 am:      Brett, in your most recent citation from the Lutheran Confessions you quote the Apology that talks about the role of faith in justification. What preposition was used? Does it say that we are justified BECAUSE OF faith as you have been contending? Or does it way that we are justified THROUGH FAITH? Can you see the difference?   Daniel Gorman (Heinrich) Senior Member Username: Heinrich Post Number: 2056 Registered: 11-2004 Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 11:10 am:      ELDONA Theses 18 and 20 go to the heart of the controversy. Does scripture record the forensic declaration(s): "Scripture teaches that God has already declared the whole world to be righteous in Christ, Rom. 5:19; 2 Cor. 5:18]21; Rom. 4:25" LCMS Brief Statement "We believe that God has justified all sinners, that is, he has declared them righteous for the sake of Christ." WELS This We Believe The ELDONA Theses say that forensic declaration of the type(s) described in the Brief Statement and This We Believe cannot be found in scripture or in the writings of the fathers. Is OJ a pious opinion? The conclusion to the ELDONA theses states that OJ is contrary to scripture and the BOC. ELDONA should add another thesis explaining how OJ destroys the foundation, i.e., true knowledge of Christ and faith.   Joe Krohn (Jester) Member Username: Jester Post Number: 196 Registered: 4-2011 Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 12:18 pm:      In order to believe something it needs to be there in the first place as we have all presented here. I believe I have finally stomached enough of Brett Meyer's false witnessing and will leave with this: "I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic* Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen." "And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spake by the Prophets. And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen."   Rev. Allan Eckert (Pastor_eckert) Member Username: Pastor_eckert Post Number: 138 Registered: 8-2009 Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 12:44 pm:      I'm coming to the discussion late and apologize in advance if this point has been made. Brett you wrote: "I believe and confess in accord with Scripture and harmony with the Lutheran Confessions that God has promised to be reconciled to, absolve, justify, declare righteous, adopt as children and save eternally all those who by the gracious gift of faith trust in Christ alone." Imagine a missionary taking that message to a place and people who have never heard of Christ. How on earth can that be Good News since it specifically excludes the people to whom it is spoken since they do not trust in Christ alone?   Joe Krohn (Jester) Member Username: Jester Post Number: 197 Registered: 4-2011 Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 12:56 pm:      "How on earth can that be Good News since it specifically excludes the people to whom it is spoken since they do not trust in Christ alone?" What is worse is that he denies the blessing of the forgiveness of sins in Baptism.   D. Jerome Klotz (Jerome) Member Username: Jerome Post Number: 158 Registered: 2-2013 Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 5:34 pm:      That Mr. Meyer denies the blessing of the forgiveness of sins in baptism is hardly surprising, since such a rejection follows necessarily from the denial of objective justification. While Mr. Meyer has consistently argued that objective justification is "enthusiasm," i.e. a justification apart from the means of grace, it is actually himself who is the schwarmer. The means of grace are only such as they flow from the wounded side of Christ, in which the sins of the whole world have been borne away and deleted, i.e. forgiven. Without this objective reality of justification, the means of grace are undermined of their origin and content. The means of grace necessarily become empty husks to be filled with the content of our own self-incurved faith. What a "gospel"! Not only does objective justification NOT militate against the means of grace, but the means of grace themselves presuppose objective justification as the sum and substance of what they are and give. Those who would deny objective justification effectively resign themselves to the religion of Zwingli, i.e. they end up swallowing the Holy Spirit--feathers and all! lawandpromise.blogspot.com   Rev. David R. Boisclair (Drboisclair) Intermediate Member Username: Drboisclair Post Number: 378 Registered: 1-2002 Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 7:02 pm:      What is curious about the ELDoNA theses is that ELDoNA lock, stock, and barrel embraced the research of Paul A. Rydecki, who wasn't even a member of the diocese when he gave his paper. Yet, the theses wholeheartedly subscribe to his two translations of two works of Aegidius Hunnius, and his "weak""Forensic Appeal" paper. They commend him and his work in the same way as the Formula of Concord endorsed works of Luther like his Large Confession on the Sacrament of the Altar. Such reliance on a newcomer would be like the Roman Catholic Church allowing Richard John Neuhaus, who had been a Lutheran pastor and theologian who turned RC, to write the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Of course, ELDoNA appears to be big on Aegidius (Giles) Hunnius even though he is a theologian of the doctrine of Receptionism and intuitu fidei finalis in the Lutheran Church. In a way ELDoNA has gone the path of the Philippists in embracing a theologian, who followed Philipp Melanchthon in many ways--Receptionism being one.   Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 133 Registered: 1-2008 Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 7:57 pm:      Mr. Klotz states, "Read your Luther quote again: "He who believes that Christ came to redeem us [subjective], AND THAT HE HAS ACCOMPLISHED IT [objective], is really redeemed." The words used in this confession by Martin Luther show that there is a difference in the meaning behind redeem and redeemed. First of all, redemption is not synonymous with justification or reconciliation. Redemption is to pay for or buy back. The difference between the use of this word in Luther’s statement is delineated by the use of ‘really’ which indicates something different is meant by the first use. The first use of redeem is to pay for our sins – the whole world’s sins. The second is tied to “He who believes”, those who have faith in Christ are “really redeemed”, bought back from under the Law to be under Grace – those who are Christians through faith in Christ. Considering the rest of Luther’s quotes – which you ignored – “Paul means to imply the contrast that all nations are accursed without faith in Christ.” and “I can not tell you in words how criminal it is to seek righteousness before God without faith in Christ.” These quotes are a testament against UOJ and the attempt to pervert Luther’s statement is equal to UOJ’s perversion of his statements regarding the Keys. The Christian Book of Concord confirms my confession when it states, “142] But righteousness is faith in the heart. Moreover, sins are redeemed by repentance, i.e., the obligation or guilt is removed, because God forgives those who repent, as it is written in Ezek. 18:21-22. Nor are we to infer from this that He forgives on account of works that follow, on account of alms; but on account of his promiseHe forgives those who apprehend His promise. Neither do any apprehend His promise, except those who truly believe, and by faith overcome sin and death.” BOC, Article III: Of Love and the Fulfilling of the Law. Joe Krohn states, “In order to believe something it needs to be there in the first place as we have all presented here. “ Scripture teaches that the Holy Spirit’s faith worked graciously through the Means of Grace has Christ as it’s object – in which it trusts fully. Christ is Extra Nos. Christ is there to be believed in. UOJ teaches that faith can only be created by the declaration that the unbeliever was forgiven before he believed – which declaration must have already been made so that faith could have something to trust in fully. So UOJ manufactures the declaration in a Galaxy of verses that teach Justification solely by faith alone in order to justify it’s validity. Only God didn’t make the declaration – as Buchholz admitted – and so UOJ continues it’s circular rationalism because it refuses to establish Christ as it’s object. UOJ then goes on to vehemently eviscerate the Holy Spirit’s faith, Christ’s righteousness, as Subjective Justification and condemn me for promoting Justiifcation solely by faith alone – when all along I’ve been promoting only objective Justification. The correct type of OJ which is that Justification is all God’s work. From Christ’s atonement to His faith that He works in those He has called to believe. It’s all Objective – yet it is not at all the false gospel of Universal Objective Justification. You all accuse me of denying the blessing of the forgiveness of sins in Baptism. I’ve done no such thing. I clearly stated that those who are baptized and do not reject the faith of the Holy Spirit which is worked in Baptism for the forgiveness of sins are forgiven. Those who reject the faith of the Holy Spirit which is worked in Baptism are not forgiven. You condemn me because UOJ teaches the whole unbelieving world has been absolved of all sin, declared forgiven of all sins and righteous. If Baptism bestows the forgiveness of sins regardless if the individual believes in Christ then faith is bestowed as well regardless of the rejection of the individual. You can’t have one thing created regardless of the unbelief of the one being baptized and not the other. Unless….unless you are teaching that Baptism is not for the creation of faith and is solely to bestow forgiveness of sins. But then that would be quite redundant in the doctrine of UOJ since the unbeliever was already declared forgiven before they were ever baptized. Quite the religion you guys have in the false gospel of UOJ. Mr. Klotz states that the “sins of the whole world have been borne away and deleted, i.e. forgiven.” John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Nope, you clearly hold to a false teaching Mr. Klotz.   Jerome Klotz (Jerome) Member Username: Jerome Post Number: 159 Registered: 2-2013 Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 8:57 pm:      Mr. Meyer, Luther states quite clearly that our being "really redeemed" by faith is grounded in the fact that Christ "has accomplished it" already. You are just playing with words. With reference to your citing Jn. 8:24, do you not believe that Christ bore the sins of the world in his very body and defeated them there? Christ says plainly that it is UNBELIEF that damns. Unbelief in what? Unbelief that Jesus Christ is the One sent from the Father, who has come to die for and to take away the sins of the world. And to say that the sins of the world are taken away is the same thing as saying that they are forgiven. You say: "...unless you are teaching that Baptism is not for the creation of faith and is solely to bestow forgiveness of sins." How else is the objective reality of the forgiveness of sins received other than through the subjective creation of faith by the means the grace? Notice that faith is created by the prior, objective reality of the forgiveness of sins communicated through the means of grace, and so this faith is simply the passive recipient of God's favor. You, on the other hand, would have faith, not as that which is created through the means of grace, but as that which creates God's favor! You say that faith creates grace. This is false. Lutherans say that faith receives grace. This is most certainly true. You say, "Those who are baptized and do not reject the faith of the Holy Spirit which is worked in Baptism for the forgiveness of sins are forgiven. Those who reject the faith of the Holy Spirit which is worked in Baptism are not forgiven." Do you hear yourself? You are saying that justification is accepting the faith that the Holy Spirit works in us through baptism. Or, in other words, justification is faith in faith! Justification is not accepting the faith that the Holy Spirit works in us through baptism. Justification is faith (subjective) in the promise that, in Christ, God has forgiven all my sins through his bloody cross and passion (objective). Cling to the cross, Mr. Meyer. Not your innards. lawandpromise.blogspot.com   Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 134 Registered: 1-2008 Posted on Friday, November 15, 2013 - 10:27 pm:      Mr. Klotz, I disagree with everything you have written. Including: You say that faith creates grace. Nope, I didn't say that. I confirmed the Scriptural truth that the forgiveness of sins is by faith so that it might be by grace. Do you hear yourself? You are saying that justification is accepting the faith that the Holy Spirit works in us through baptism. Or, in other words, justification is faith in faith!  Nope, didn't say that. I have confessed that God justifies only those who receive the gift of faith in Christ alone. Those believing in Christ receive His Righteousness for the forgiveness of sins and eternal life. The faith that the Holy Spirit works through the Means of Grace, God's Word and Baptism, and strengthens through Holy Communion is Christ's righteousness which comforts and sustains because it trusts in Christ alone for the forgiveness of sins and salvation. The Holy Spirit works through the Word and water in Baptism to create the faith that trusts in Christ alone. The Christian Book of Concord condemns the false gospel of UOJ: "because those who are accounted righteous before God do not live in mortal sin." BOC: What Is Justifying Faith?  The whole unbelieving world lives in mortal sin therefore they are not accounted righteous by God. UOJ is a rationalistic religion based on a declaration that God never made.

Jann Carl posted on the fast-growing Calvin Coolidge page of Facebook:

http://www.intrepidlutherans.com/2013/11/johann-gerhard-on-1-timothy-316.html#comment-form

Anonymous said...

If there is agreement that "Christ took upon Himself the sins of men as Guarantor in order to make satisfaction for them to the Father.” I think Paul, in Acts, is very clear that each person has to believe to be saved.
Acts 16:28-31 ESV
[28] But Paul cried with a loud voice, "Do not harm yourself, for we are all here." [29] And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. [30] Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" [31] And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Jim Roberts

NOVEMBER 20, 2013 AT 4:21 PM

Brett Meyer said...

Mr. Roberts, why was Pastor Rydecki excommunicated from the WELS for teaching and confessing that men are justified solely by faith in Christ alone?

NOVEMBER 20, 2013 AT 11:02 PM

Anonymous said...

Mr. Meyer,

I cannot speak for the WELS on why they excommunicated Pastor Rydecki, but in my opinion, based on my observations and my own issues with the WELS, I believe they excommunicated Pastor Rydecki because he did not confess the WELS doctrine explicitly but instead, he actually preached true scripture from the Bible.

Pastor Rydecki's sermon on April 8, 2012 contained these statements:

"But for those who want a sure refuge from God’s wrath, for those who want to be reconciled to God, for those who want Jesus for a Savior, the gospel reveals this truth: that Jesus was delivered up for our sins and raised to life for our justification. His death was sufficient payment for all sin, for every sin, for the worst sinner, for his most bitter enemy; and his resurrection means that all who hope in him, all who trust in him, all who look to him for forgiveness of their sins are absolved before God’s courtroom in heaven. The empty tomb means the justification of all who believe in the risen One.

And with justification comes every gift and benefit of Christ: the adoption as God’s children, the full acceptance into eternal life, the daily forgiveness of sins in this Christian Church, and the promise of your own empty tomb when Jesus returns, for judgment against all who refused to repent, and with salvation for his believing people."

To me this is the same teaching Jesus gave in John 3:16-18

John 3:16-18 ESV

[16] "For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. [18] Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

If we examine the WELS doctrine, "This We Believe", there are many conflicting statements of faith. It is also curious that Pastor Rydecki was excommunicated for saying we must believe in Jesus, and the WELS doctrine is "This We Believe".

The WELS doctrine starts out:

"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven" (Matthew 10:32). With these words Jesus indicates that he wants Christians to confess publicly what they believe in their hearts.

Under the Christ and Redemption section the WELS doctrine states:

5." We reject any teaching that in any way limits Christ's work of atonement. We reject any teaching that says Christ paid the penalty only for the sins of some people. We reject any teaching that says Christ made only a partial payment for sins."

This appears to me to be the reasoning the WELS used to distort Pastor Rydecki's sermon and excommunicate him. This is even more confusing since the WELS doctrine disagrees with itself in other sections:

under section I. God and his Revelation, they state the following while quoting John 3:16:

3. We believe that God has given the full revelation of himself in his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known" (John 1:18). In Jesus, God has revealed himself as the Savior-God, who "so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

Continued in a second post- Jim Roberts

NOVEMBER 21, 2013 AT 9:35 PM

Anonymous said...

Then under the section "IV. JUSTIFICATION BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH" statement 6, they focus on believing being the key difference between a soul going to Heaven or hell:
6. We believe that at the moment of death, the souls of those who believe in Christ go immediately to be with the Lord in the joy of heaven because of the atoning work of Christ (Luke 23:43). The souls of those who do not believe in Christ go to an eternity of misery in hell (Luke 16:22-24).
and then contradict that statement in the very next line:
7. We reject every teaching that people in any way contribute to their salvation. We reject the belief that people with their own power can cooperate in their conversion or make a decision for Christ (John 15:16). We reject the belief that those who are converted were less resistant to God's grace than those who remain unconverted. We reject all efforts to present faith as a condition people must fulfill to complete their justification. We reject all attempts of sinners to justify themselves before God.
If I must believe in Jesus to be saved, as Paul instructed the jailer, I must make a decision to believe, using the free will that God has given me. I also acknowledge that I am only able to make that decision because the Holy Spirit has lead me to Christ.
They again contradict in the section VI. The Means of Grace:
3. We believe that also through the Sacrament of Baptism the Holy Spirit applies the gospel to sinners, giving them new life (Titus 3:5) and cleansing them from all sin (Acts 2:38). The Lord points to the blessing of Baptism when he promises, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mark 16:16). We believe that the blessing of Baptism is meant for all people (Matthew 28:19), including infants. Infants are born sinful (John 3:6) and therefore need to be born again, that is, to be brought to faith, through Baptism (John 3:5).
I believe it to be the following,
Being "Lutheran," our congregations accept and teach Bible-based teachings of Martin Luther that inspired the reformation of the Christian Church in the 16th century. The teaching of Luther and the reformers can be summarized in three short phrases: Grace alone, Faith alone, Scripture alone.
Grace alone
God loves the people of the world, even though they are sinful, rebel against Him and do not deserve His love. He sent Jesus, His Son to love the unlovable and save the ungodly.
Faith alone
By His suffering and death as the substitute for all people of all time, Jesus purchased and won forgiveness and eternal life for them. Those who hear this Good News and believe it have the eternal life it offers. God creates faith in Christ and gives people forgiveness through Him.
Scripture alone
The Bible is God's inerrant and infallible Word, in which He reveals His Law and His Gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ. It is the sole rule and norm for Christian doctrine.
The WELS seems to focus on Grace Alone only. But just as God is three seperate persons in one, Grace, Faith and Scripture are three individual concepts in our redemption, salvation and entrance into Heaven.
Continued in a third post- Jim Roberts

NOVEMBER 21, 2013 AT 9:37 PM

Anonymous said...

As to my issue with the WELS, I will explain.
I was raised Catholic. I met my wife in college, she was raised in the WELS church and WELS schools in western Michigan. Before we got married we looked at multiple churches to find a church we could belong to together. We chose the WELS Church. I went through the adult classes and became a member of the WELS. We were married in a WELS Church and continued to be members. We moved to a different State and we were confronted with a dilemma, the nearest WELS church was over 45 minutes away, so we searched closer to home and found a conservative Missouri Synod Church that would allow us to participate in church activities and keep our children active in youth ministries. We joined this church after we determined the Pastor was teaching scripture in the way we believed. However, now we are prohibited from recieving communion and my in-laws WELS church. It was explained that since we do not confess to be WELS the pastors cannot give us communion.
I find this disturbing as I was always taught that I had to examine myself before I eat of the bread and drink of the cup, as in 1 Corinthians 11:28. And that it meant asking and answering yes to these questions.
Do I believe I am a sinner and am I sorry for my sins?
Do I believe that Jesus, by his death, offers me forgiveness of all my sins?
Do I believe that I receive he very Body and Blood of Jesus Christ; the same Body and Blood that lay in the manger, died on he cross and rose from death, in and with he bread and wine?
Do I seriously desire to turn away from my sinful ways?
I must have missed the adult confirmation class that added this as the most important question:
Before I can take communion and share the Body and Blood of my savior, do I profess that I 100% agree with the WELS leadership and their earthly doctrine? Because it appears I am not able to know Christ or have Christian fellowship with the WELS unless I answer yes.
So, I believe Pastor Rydecki is correct and the WELS excommunicated him because they (the WELS leaders) are straying from scripture.
Jim Roberts

NOVEMBER 21, 2013 AT 9:38 PM

They are happy to work with elca and the salvation army, but will they commune a faithful lutheran?