 |
| The efficacy of the Word. |
Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 117 Registered: 1-2008 |
Joe, when are the Keys to Retain Sins to be used if God forgave the whole world at the cross? | ||
     Rev. David R. Boisclair (Drboisclair) Intermediate Member Username: Drboisclair Post Number: 368 Registered: 1-2002 |
Brett, I think that you need to read Dr. C.F.W. Walther's "The Proper Distinction Between Law and Gospel." Jon Buchholz answers this in his paper as well when he reminds us that Luther's scriptural doctrine of the two sides of Justification, i.e. Justification's acquisition and its application, are to be maintained. We do not believe that Christ's righteousness was applied or delivered at the cross or the empty tomb but that it is applied in the Gospel and Sacraments. db. Gregory Jackson should keep that in mind when he continually slanders us and our synods with the charge that we are Enthusiasts as the Schwaermerei of the 16th century. God does not deal with us in any other way than by Word and Sacrament, the Means of Grace. Lord, deliver us from the slanderer. | ||
| Joe Krohn (Jekster) Member Username: Jekster Post Number: 187 Registered: 4-2011 |
Brett, until you are willing to stop convoluting what is subjective and what is objective, there is nothing to say anymore. | ||
| Rick Strickert (Carlvehse) Senior Member Username: Carlvehse Post Number: 4239 Registered: 10-2003 |
Daniel Gorman: According to Rev. Rydecki, he was only required to confess the BOC Also, when Rev. Rydecki became a member of WELS he agreed to abide by the WELS constitution. On October 2, 2012, the WELS, in conformity to the WELS and District constitutions, suspended Rev. Rydecki from membership because it considered Rev. Rydecki's stated position on the doctrine of objective justification not congruent with Scripture, the BOC, and the position of WELS. | ||
| Daniel Gorman (Heinrich) Senior Member Username: Heinrich Post Number: 2053 Registered: 11-2004 |
Rev. David R. Boisclair: "Mr. Gorman, are you saying that WELS IS guilty of popery or that Rydecki alleges WELS guilty of popery?" Rev. Rydecki accuses the WELS AZ-CA district president of popery: "So you admit that you were emboldened to break your word to my congregation by the support you received from the seminary faculty and from the COP. You have thus implicated them in your papistic attempt to establish new doctrine ex cathedra and to force your own made-up statements upon the pastors and congregations of the WELS on threat of suspension. One would think that those who bear the name of Luther would shun such behavior, but instead you have embraced it—to your shame and disgrace." My opinion on alleged popery by the AZ-CA district president would be outside the scope of the topic "ELDONA rejects Objective Justification." | ||
| Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 118 Registered: 1-2008 |
Anyone, when are the Keys to Retain Sins to be used if God forgave/absolved the whole world at the cross? What sin can be retained that God already forgave? | ||
| George Mueller (Mueller) Senior Member Username: Mueller Post Number: 1068 Registered: 11-2012 |
But Rydecki is being dishonest. He knows perfectly well that the WELS is not attempting to establish new doctrine. They are standing by what they have been teaching since long before Rydecki was born. | ||
| George Mueller (Mueller) Senior Member Username: Mueller Post Number: 1069 Registered: 11-2012 |
Brett, the sins of the impenitent should be retained as long as they do not repent. | ||
| David Bickel (Drb) Intermediate Member Username: Drb Post Number: 496 Registered: 11-2009 |
Matthew 18:21-35 http://tinyurl.com/cfzml96 Brett, when did the king retain the debt of the unforgiving servant if the king already forgave/remitted that debt? What debt can be retained that the king already forgave? Theology of the Cross: http://DawningRealm.com | ||
| Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 119 Registered: 1-2008 |
Mr. Mueller, thank you for your response. So if an unbelievers sins are retained while he remains an unbeliever, are you saying then that in the doctrine of UOJ God never really removed the sin when Christ paid for the whole worlds sins on the cross? Isn't the Christian who applies the Key to Retain Sin standing in the stead and on behalf of Christ? How is it that the doctrine of UOJ teaches that sins can be retained in an unbeliever but also teach the only way to create saving faith in the unbeliever is to tell him his sins are already forgiven/absolved? It's equal to saying, "Dear unbeliever, you will die in your unrepented sins that I in God's stead retain and you will go to Hell for eternity if you don't believe that God declared you forgiven, absolved of all sin, righteous and worthy of eternal life before and even if you never believe." Mr. Bickel, you answered my question with a question which makes it very hard to follow what you're trying to say. | ||
| Rev. David R. Boisclair (Drboisclair) Intermediate Member Username: Drboisclair Post Number: 371 Registered: 1-2002 |
Brett, you are assuming that we who believe in the biblical doctrine of Objective Justification believe that it is a universal delivery of Justification regardless of faith. That is not what the Bible says nor is it what we believe. Forgiveness has been acquired by Christ's vicarious atonement. IN CHRIST God has reconciled the world to Himself (2 Cor 5:18-20); however, the whole world is not in Christ, only those whom the Holy Spirit regenerates through the means of grace. Hence, the person whose sins are retained is the person who has never come to faith or lost faith. This is the proper application of Law and Gospel. You should know that we teach that if someone does not trust in the universal objective justification that God has effected in Christ, delivered through the means of grace, that person does not benefit from this act of God's grace. While a human being is not able to come to faith, a human being can resist the Holy Spirit as He works in the means of grace. We certainly do not deny the Scripture passages like Mark 16:16: "he who believeth not shall be damned." In effect what you are accusing us of is Universalism, which even Samuel Huber rejected. Even ELDoNA in their theses does not accuse us of that error, so neither should you, Brett. One point should also be made: Christ said that the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, will convict the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. Remember that He said, "Of sin, because they do not believe in me" (John 16:9). The only damning sin is unbelief since it rejects the forgiveness acquired by Jesus Christ. He who believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he who does not believe will be damned. | ||
| Rev. David R. Boisclair (Drboisclair) Intermediate Member Username: Drboisclair Post Number: 372 Registered: 1-2002 |
Let's talk about analogies. Paul Rydecki in recent posts on his blog "Intrepid Lutherans" has come up with an analogy that he uses to oppose our doctrine of Objective Justification: suppose there were a mechanic who acquired engines to replace every engine on every car on earth, those who believe in universal objective justification would say that that would be the same as saying that the mechanic had actually replaced every engine on every car on earth. That would be tantamount to saying UNIVERSAL SUBJECTIVE JUSTIFICATION, which we do not say. The installation of the engine would be the application and reception of the engine by the car owner that had the mechanic install it on his car, i.e. SUBJECTIVE JUSTIFICATION. We who teach the biblical doctrine of Objective Justification would say that Objective Justification would be like the mechanic advertising over the whole world that he has free engines that he is willing to install on anyone's car which would be brought to him. Luther made a simpler analogy: a king gives you a castle. Even if you do not receive and accept it does not mean that the king did not give it to you. Gentlemen, the Bible teaches BOTH Objective/General Justification and Subjective/Individual Justification. We, in the synods that used to constitute the admirable and fondly remembered Synodical Conference, believe BOTH these biblical doctrines, and we strive to properly distinguish and proclaim them. | ||
| David Breitenfeld (Dbreitenfeld) Advanced Member Username: Dbreitenfeld Post Number: 791 Registered: 10-2004 |
Eph 1:4 " even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him." Even before sin came into the world, and before the fall of man, God's justification of sinful man was made just and available for the whole world. From Adam to the last person born, God redeeming work through Christ is for all people. He started it, He finishes it. | ||
| Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 120 Registered: 1-2008 |
Rev. Boisclair, I thought about your 7:16pm comment for quite some time. I will reject and contend against it because you establish a false object of the Holy Spirit's faith "trust in the universal objective justification". Nowhere in Scripture does God direct men to trust in anything but Christ alone. UOJ - "The forgiveness of sins that was won at the cross when Jesus canceled the debt of the whole world is the object of faith." Page 35, Buchholz, Jesus Canceled Your Debt The trouble is that God never acquitted the unbelieving world as your gospel of UOJ teaches. God never viewed the unbelieving world as being in Christ since that is only a reality by the gracious gift of faith alone, worked through the means of grace. I read Buccholz' 2012 Jesus Canceled Your Debt essay again since you praised it so highly. I recommend everyone read it as it is a purely rationlistic exposition of the new gospel of UOJ and leads the reader through rational gymnastics, subjecting God's Word to human conditions, in order to establish a new way to righteousness before God and a false object of faith. The rationalistic quote I provided in an above comment is just the tip of the iceberg - so to speak. Another issue is the teaching that God has established multiple realities. Realities in which God declares the unbelieving world acquitted of sin, absolved of all sin and righteous - but they aren't until they believe they are. One reality in which God views the world in Christ and another outside of Christ - referring to believers and unbelievers in each instance. One reality in which God has removed all sin from the unbelieving world and another in which the unbelievers sins are retained because they don't believe the sins were removed. And the list goes on... UOJ has replaced Christ's Gospel with another false gospel. Galatians 1. Buchholz adequately defined UOJ's war against Christ's Gospel this way: "A Lutheran pastor who is unwilling to say, “God has forgiven the world in Christ,” is not only refusing to acknowledge a truth that is expressed in the Lutheran Confessions, he is denying the heart of the gospel itself. If anyone is reluctant to say, “God acquitted the world in Christ when he raised Jesus from the dead,” he is turning away from the central truth of Scripture. If a pastor preaches or teaches, “Your sins are forgiven only if you have faith,” he is directing his hearers’ focus inward, horribly confusing law and gospel, and ultimately leaving his listeners in doubt. If he says, “Your sins are forgiven when you believe in Jesus,” he is undercutting the simple truth that forgiveness was effected by Jesus for all people as an accomplished fact before any of us living today were even born." Page 36, Buchholz, Jesus Canceled Your Debt http://azcadistrict.com/sites/default/files/papers /Buchholz_2012-10.pdf UOJ is proof that rationalism is a religion. |
 |
| Preaching the Gospel. |