Hi Greg,
Just an FYI about the J.P. Meyer Ministers of Christ quote.
You might already be aware of this, but I thought I would pass it along just in case. WELS identified Meyer's statement as unacceptable, and NPH removed it (relegated it to a footnote) in later editions of Ministers of Christ. In my edition, which bears a 1963 copyright, the statement occurs on pp 103-4.
Of course, if your point was to prove that JP Meyer held this position, his quote supplies the proof. If your point was to prove that the WELS accepts this statement, the corrected edition proves otherwise.
I am not trying to enter this UOJ debate at any level; I am just making sure you have accurate information about the citation.
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GJ - I responded in a calm and reassuring way, keeping the author's identity secret here, lest there be reprisals against him for violating the shun order.
The writer is quoting from earlier editions. I bought the 2011 edition, cited the year and page in the graphics, and gave the volume away to a bookish guy who enjoys having a huge library.
Panning was the New Testament professor at Mequon and previously presided over the appeal of the Kokomo families who questioned the UOJ claims of JP Meyer. Three of the four statements are directly from Meyer and the fourth is from an earlier Swedish-Norwegian debate about the same topic. The Swedish Augustana Lutherans were on the side of Paul, Luther, and the Confessio Augustana.
WELS makes fun of the Book of Concord and refuses to teach it in any significant way.
I also responded to X by saying that Buchholz' statements in his essay are even worse than JP Meyer's. However, appealing to the authority of one WELS leader or another is rather ironic. They turned against Gausewitz' Biblical catechism and adopted the Kuske catechism, a real farce, instead.
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| This is preposterous. |
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| Has anyone in WELS read the Book of Concord? Bueller? Bueller? Anyone? Anyone? |
The write responded:
Hi Greg,
You are correct - Ministers of Christ was reprinted in 2011.
I misspoke myself when I said the statement had been moved to a footnote. The editors left the bogey in place (presumably since the author is dead and can't give permission to change it), but then added an explanatory footnote:
"It has been correctly observed that when the New Testament uses the term hagioi, generally translated as "saints," it regularly restricts itself to speaking of believers. It is therefore critical to realize the adjusted meaning that Prof. Meyer here gives the term "saint" when he incorporates it into the phrase "the status of a saint." He is not saying that every person who has the status of saint is a saint, or a believer, or that he will necessarily be saved. That would be universalism. Rather, he is saying that in view of Christ's substitutionary death and merit, God now declares the sinner righteous. God can look at the sinner as holy because in Christ his status, his standing before God, has changed."
I know you still disagree with the content of the footnote. But aside from that, the footnote does demonstrate that even those who defend UOJ agree that the "Saints in Hell" phraseology that Meyer used is unacceptable because it is inconsistent with the biblical usage of the word hagioi (i.e. an "adjusted meaning") and confusing enough to require an explanation / disclaimer. In other words, if they agreed with what Meyer said, and how he said it, they would have left it alone.
I even remember being warned by Seminary professor to watch out for this flaw in an otherwise excellent commentary -- (probably in PT or Dog, 84-88).
It's been good to talk with you. Have a good weekend.
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GJ - WELS, the Misouri Synod, and the fading ELS would have to repudiate UOJ for them to be considered Lutheran or even Christian.
This is closely related to the issue of authority. For WELS, the ultimate authority is a select group of dimwits and those who agree with them. If someone agrees with those dimwits, they are counted as praiseworthy and defended all the way to state prison. If some question the dimwits, they are expelled or hated out.
