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WELS Discussions - Daniel Baker Shows Oh! Jay Webber How To Discuss Theology - From the Scriptures and From the Senior Concordist

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Joe Jewell I've been trying to read more Chemnitz... the one I'm on now is "Ministry, Word, and Sacraments: An Enchiridion". Which is this one from?
Like311 hrs
Daniel Baker This is from his Loci Theologici, which I believe are being published as vols. 7-8 in the CPH "Chemnitz' Works" Series.
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Benjamin Radtke Really this is another way to describe the distinction between law and gospel. The law always proclaims condemnation for all and the gospel always proclaims justification for all. They are both completely objective and eternal and immutable.
Like210 hrs
Daniel Baker What part of "this man went down to his house justified rather than the other" proclaims "justification for all?" Unless you mean in the sense that the Throne of Grace was there for him, but by virtue of his unbelief he remained before the tribunal of justice in condemnation?
Like10 hrsEdited
Benjamin Radtke That's Chemnitz's entire point. The first throne constantly calls out "guilty". The second throne constantly calls out "not guilty". The man was condemned, not because the second throne was not calling out "not guilty", but because he refused "to use the benefit of the calling".
Daniel Baker Yes, it is true that the Throne of Grace, that Mercy Seat, is forever availing whether we believe it or not. However, if we do not appeal to it, then we do not have part in its benefits, and are in no wise justified. For the converse, everyone is born in a state of condemnation before the tribunal of justice, until such time as he appeals by faith to the Throne of Grace.
Benjamin Radtke I don't disagree with anything you just wrote. Nor do I believe that the proper teaching of UOJ disagrees with with you just wrote.
Like210 hrs
Daniel Baker The term "UOJ" has historically referred to the notion that God has declared the entire world of sinners righteous and forgiven in his heart, as Sig Becker wrote in his essay "Universal Justification," to wit: "The term universal or general justification is self-explanatory. By this term we mean to say that God has justified, declared righteous, or acquitted, the whole world of sinners, or, in other words, that God has in His heart forgiven the sins of all men. An alternate term for universal justification in our circles has been, for many decades, 'objective justification.'"

This stands at complete odds with the notion that everyone is born convicted and condemned before the tribunal of justice, and the words of Christ, who specifically says that the Pharisee (who is part of the "whole world of sinners") was not justified.

Like10 hrsEdited
Rik Krahn II Although I've never met Sig Becker, and granting that he may have overstated in these areas, you seem to be saying that he would deny universal, complete depravity. Is that what you're saying? That seems like a pretty significant charge.
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Benjamin Radtke Well right, the two things are at odds because law and gospel are at odds, so to speak. We don't try to make the two things fit together logically. The law says what it says absolutely and the gospel says what it says absolutely.
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Rik Krahn II Benjamin Radtke I believe you've just stated what I think is the crux of this debate - attempts to make law and gospel fit together logically. It's why this debate never gets anywhere.
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Daniel Baker Chemnitz (and by proxy Jesus) could not be clearer in saying that the Publican started convicted and condemned like the Pharisee, but moved to the Throne of Grace, ceasing his condemnation and ensuring his acquittal. They are also equally clear in saying that the Pharisee is NOT justified.
Daniel Baker Now I remember why I gave up debating this topic. As I said, the Chemnitz citation and the Words of our Lord recorded by St. Luke could not be clearer. He who has ears to hear, let him hear. "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other."
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Benjamin Radtke Rik Krahn II and I are not disagreeing in the slightest with the clear words of Christ.
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Daniel Baker Glad to hear it! But the notion that "all are justified" clearly does. Since the Pharisee would be part of all. And Jesus says he is not justified.
Benjamin Radtke But again, law and gospel say two different, contradictory things. At this very moment, the law says that you will be condemned to hell for your sin. At this very moment, the gospel says that you will be saved for the sake of Christ. Your argument seems to be that it has to be one or other, that it can't be both.
Like210 hrs
Benjamin Radtke Also, when you're talking about an individual (like the Pharisee) we're automatically in the realm of the subjective. In which sphere was this Pharisee? The sphere of the law or the sphere of the gospel? Clearly, he was in the sphere of the law, which...See More
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Daniel Baker The Law and the Gospel are not mutually exclusive. I'm not sure I'd call them inherently contradictory either. The Law tells us what duties we owe to God. The Gospel tells us that Christ fulfilled the Law on our behalf.

Yes, I would argue that one cannot be simultaneously condemned and justified. While the Law and the Gospel are simultaneously true, as you say we can only be in one sphere. Either we're under the Law or we're under grace. The Pharisee was under the Law, and so was condemned. The Publican, under grace and forgiven (justified). They were not simultaneously condemned/justified.

Like9 hrsEdited
Benjamin Radtke In a perfect world, you're right, law and gospel are not contradictory. But in a fallen world they are, since no one can do the duties owed to God, and thus the law always accuses and kills--not because there's something wrong with the law, but because...See More
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Daniel Baker I'm still not sure how that is a contradiction? The fact that the immutable will of God always accuses is not opposed to the work of Christ.

Saying that the tribunal of justice and Throne of Grace exist simultaneously is not akin to saying that all ...See More

Like8 hrsEdited
Nick Haasch Alright....I've had this post written and sitting here unposted for several minutes. This whole debate feels like poor use of language. As one who desires to speak with greater clarity I submit the following:

I do not wish to belabor a point, but perh...See More

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Benjamin Radtke I still think Luther is the clearest on this. There's the acquisition and the distribution. Christ acquired/won/achieved/created the throne/sphere/message/treasure. It exists in Christ and because of Christ whether or not anyone knows or believes it. I...See More
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Daniel Baker Yes well, the contention i make is that it is not objectively or subjectively true to say that God has declared anyone righteous apart from faith. So the world is not declared righteous/absolved, but rather stands condemned.
Like7 hrs
Rik Krahn II Benjamin Radtke I don't think anyone would disagree with what you just wrote, which is why I get frustrated with this whole discussion. What you say is accurate, true, Scriptural, and non-contested (for the most part). The only thing we can't agree o...See More
Like37 hrs
Benjamin Radtke Rik Krahn II, I totally agree. That's why I used so many options/choices/terms. There's this salvation-thing, whatever you want to call it, that Jesus won through his death and resurrection and distributes through his Word and Sacraments. Simple as that.
Like27 hrs
Andrew Schroer I've always wondered if it would be clearer to say that justification has both an objective and subjective aspect to it rather than using two different terms: objective justification and subjective justification as if there were two different justifications... Just a thought.
Like17 hrs
Rik Krahn II Andrew Schroer I think that would be a step in the right direction, and I think it's accurate, but I'm not sure it would be satisfactory to the anti-UOJers. They are convinced that Scripture never uses the term justification in any sort of an objectiv...See More
Like7 hrs
Nick Haasch Further clarification question if I may: the objective side of justification would be the objective fact that Jesus has truly paid for the sins of all people in in Christ there is forgiveness, life and salvation for all. isn't that just atonement?
Like37 hrs
Rik Krahn II Nick Haasch To my understanding, yes. Which is why I wouldn't go to the mat to defend the *term* objective justification. I think we could lose the term and still have the truth. I'm not yet ready to say that we *should* lose the term, just that I think we *could.* All my talking aside, though, I don't claim to be an expert...
Like67 hrs
Nick Haasch Thank you Rik. I've appreciated your level-headed discussion so far. in fact, this has been a very cordial discussion of what sadly has become a "don't touch it" topic for far too many. As stated my goal is simply to use the clearest language possible to reflect Scriptural truth.
Like37 hrs
Benjamin Radtke Here's Marquart on Luther's "grand equation":

"Grace equals forgiveness equals justification equals redemption equals reconciliation equals propitiation. These are theological not philological equivalents. Of course the words...mean different things--but they refer to the same theological reality, though from different angles or aspects of it. This is not scholarly carelessness on Luther’s part, but pastoral meat-and-potatoes orientation. Impatient with everything frilly and pedantic, Luther concentrates massively on the gospel essentials--and with him the Lutheran church."

So, yes, objective justification and universal atonement are essentially the same, according to Marquart's reading of Luther, at least. Which is why, as Rik said, we don't necessarily need to insist on the term "objective justification" if someone maintains universal atonement. At the same time, though, it's also why people get concerned when people argue against objective justification, since they might also be rejecting universal atonement.

Like16 hrs
Daniel Baker FWIW I haven't met a single UOJ skeptic who denies the universal Atonement. But I know a million UOJ fanatics who say that UOJ is more than simply the Atonement, such as the one who kicked out a WELS pastor and subsequently his congregation for questioning the UOJ terminology while nonetheless unabashedly affirming Universal Atonement.


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GJ - I could quote Oh! Jay Webber at length, but his evasions are always the same, circling the same Walther-Stephan points with various subtle evasions. In contrast, Daniel Baker sticks to one point - the Pharisee and Publican - and asks how UOJ fits that Parable of Jesus. He backs up a good, clear, plain argument with Chemnitz, whose authority in these matters is far greater than JP Meyer, Marquart, and Valleskey put together.

Marquart could not answer Thy Strong Word - and never did. He received a free review copy and responded, only reluctantly when pressed, with a postcard acknowledging he received it.

All the UOJ arguments are divorced from the Confessions, so each person adds his own personal revelations - much like Sig Becker - and makes their wrong position even worse. They have given up the light yoke of justification by faith and assumed the far heavier, even impossible yoke of UOJ.

Must we carry that lying, thieving pimp Walther on our backs until the end of time? How does anything he wrote replace the Book of Concord?

Notice these evasions and lapses among the UOJ Stormtroopers:

  • Luther's Galatians Commentary is avoided and never quoted.
  • The phrase justification by faith is studiously avoided.
  • They never speak of being justified "by the faith of Jesus," which is right from Romans and Galatians. In fact, they hate the word faith and seldom mention it.
  • The attempt to make Subjective Justification into justification by faith is deceptive and furtive.
  • Article III of the Formula of Concord - The Righteousness of Faith - is never mentioned, never quoted.
  • No knowledge of Luther is evidenced, but the writers like to pixelate Luther in a self-serving and ignorant way. Smirk. Smirk. "Uncle Marty," as Jon Buchholz said to a WELS congregation.
  • They call justification by faith Calvinism! but they also say "The three solas!"
  • They like to equate the atonement with OJ, but that is clearly a lie, as they know. OJ is precisely God's imaginary declaration of the forgiveness of the world. That is not the same as Christ dying for the sins of the world. In fact, the early Robert Preus expressly stated that OJ is not the atonement.
  • They are full of themselves and puff themselves up about their synod's doctrine or - get this - THEIR doctrine. The Word belong to God, not anyone else.

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