WELS Discussions on Facebook

Matthew Brunner

Anyone on here brave enough to comment on why Wels and Lc-ms so fanatically push universal objective justification these days? I don't think people should be excommunicated for being uncomfortable with the concept.

Comments

Angie Raddatz Not sure I'm understanding what you are asking, but Jesus died for all.

Like28 hrs

Jason Sturgill What do you mean "push"? Are you confusing it with universalism?

Like8 hrs

Scott E. Jungen Here we go down the rabbit hole.........

Like78 hrs

Jason Sturgill Honest questions deserve a response. If he has an agenda it will come to light soon enough.

Like38 hrs

Rik Krahn II Well, the idea that Jesus actually is the Lamb of God, who actually takes away the sin of the world is kind of what we're all about, so maybe that explains why we're so "fanatic" about it. And I doubt anyone has been excommunicated for being "uncomfortable" with anything.

Like28 hrsEdited

Angie Smith There is nothing wrong with the phrase: Universal Objective Justification as long as we make sure that isn't misunderstood to mean that everyone is going to heaven. I think the reason it is being used more today is because it counters decision theology which is also being used more today.
I think those who are uncomfortable with the concept just need to understand it better.

Like67 hrs

Jason Sturgill We believe it because scripture teaches it.

Like67 hrs

Matthew Brunner My agenda is to see what people in real time think of this issue. I agree Dr. G. Jackson is an unhinged fanatic but he has some good points about this issue. I've been released for years for non attendance but I was starting to come back. Now I'm moving more towards confessional reformed in persuasion.

Like7 hrs

Matthew Brunner And Pastor Rydecki was excommunicated over this question.

Like17 hrs

Rik Krahn II Pastor Rydecki was not excommunicated. To excommunicate someone is to declare that they are an unbeliever, outside the Church. Pastor Rydecki was removed from the WELS ministerium, because he insisted that WELS taught false doctrine. Big difference.

Like47 hrsEdited

Matthew Brunner If your barred from communion for immorality or false teaching isn't that a form of being excommunicate? Either way he was kicked out.

Matthew Brunner I'm suspicious myself why it took him so long to suddenly find Wels was teaching false...

Like7 hrs

Rik Krahn II There are no "forms" of excommunication. And excommunication isn't being "kicked out." It is this muddled terminology and escalation that makes this issue harder than it needs to be. To be "uncomfortable" with some terminology is one thing. To declare that WELS is heretical is something else. When one declares that WELS is heretical, it is tough for the Synod to keep that man on its clergy roster.

Like77 hrs

Daniel Baker Let's not spread misinformation. To the best of my knowledge, Pastor Rydecki never called the WELS or anyone "heretical" prior to being "kicked out." Cf.http://www.intrepidlutherans.com/.../suspended-from-wels...

Intrepid Lutherans: Suspended from the WELS - Why?

INTREPIDLUTHERANS.COM

Like12 hrs

Joshua Kropp as someone who finds the discussion on this topic frustrating when the sides talk past each other, I would appreciate it if someone would please *succinctly* point out where Scriptures teach UOJ, and show where this teaching is found in TLCs

Like17 hrs

Rik Krahn II My views on this "issue" is that it is largely a matter of terminology. There are clearly some terms that Scripture uses to describe the work of Jesus that are universal - that apply to all people of the world, regardless of whether or not they are a ...See More

Like47 hrs

Angie Smith 1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world"

Like17 hrs

Rik Krahn II 1 John 2:2 shows that "atonement" is one of the terms that can rightly applied to all people, believer or not. But that doesn't really answer the question. The question is whether atonement and justification are the same thing. Some say yes, some say no.

Like37 hrs

Nick Haasch You typed the same thought I had before I could get the words out.

Like37 hrs

Angie Smith What do they say is the difference between atonement and justification?

Like6 hrs

Rik Krahn II Atonement is the payment for sin being made. Justification in the payment being applied to an individual. Atonement is universal - no one disagrees about that. Justification, defined that way, can only be true of believers; it comes only through faith. So some would say that the two terms are not synonymous.

Like56 hrs

Rik Krahn II Others would say that atonement is largely the same as "objective" justification, and that the narrow definition of justification I gave above is "subjective" justification.

Like6 hrs

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Jason Sturgill Jesus died for all, but everyone will not experience the benefit of salvation. It's like if I place 1 million dollars in your bank account, but you never make a withdrawal. You received a great gift, but you chose not to receive the benefit of that gif...See More

Like16 hrs

David Peterson (The fruit of Christ's redemption is not that He merely opened for man the way to reconciliation with God, and that God is now ready and willing to forgive sins, pending certain conditions man must first fulfill. The fruit of Christ's redemption is tha...See More

Like16 hrs

Matthew Brunner The problem is formulations like all men are justified without repentance or faith period. That seems very problematic. Judas in hell is already justified with sins fully atoned for?

Like16 hrs

Jason Sturgill But faith is not removed from the scenario. Our sins are paid for, but to receive full pardon from punishment we need to place our trust in Christ alone. If one does not do so, Hell is the punishment for rejecting Christ. It's the rejection of Christ that sends us to Hell, not our sins, per se.

Like16 hrs

Scott O. Kuznicki Christ did pay for the sins of Judas (atonement) but Judas rejected that work and has therefore rejected being justified before God. Is this a correct understanding?

Like36 hrsEdited

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Rik Krahn II To speak of justification that way is problematic. For that reason, we try to avoid speaking in that way (the question you asked is given as an example of very sloppy terminology).

Like36 hrs

Rik Krahn II It's one of those statements that "can be understood correctly," and you've understood it correctly. But it's just not clear, and kind of raises more questions than it answers.

Like16 hrs

Angie Smith “Even he who does not believe that he is free and his sins forgiven shall also learn, in due time, how assuredly his sins were forgiven, even though he did not believe it. St. Paul says in Rom. 3: ‘[Does] their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of...See More

Like25 hrs

John Miller http://s2.quickmeme.com/.../700fdcdfef87109c6aae0489cc182...

S2.QUICKMEME.COM

Like34 hrs

Tom Hartwig Is that a reference to your birthday? Hope it's a good one and that you can climb back out!

Like4 hrs

Scott E. Jungen Thanks Tom, but you'll notice it's this long conversation and not my birthday. I could make it worse by asking about those justified unbelievers in hell, but then I'd just be snarky. Have you followed this long discussion on the many blogsites? Now I'll go back to having a good time on my birthday. See you in July. smile emoticon

Like4 hrs

Tom Hartwig Scott, all I saw was a single comment from you about a rabbit hole. Have not read any of the conversation, and I won't ruin your birthday by reading it now. Maybe at a later date. Wishing you well!

Like3 hrs

Thomas Schmeling I also grieve the conflation of universal atonement with justification. I only wish that I had worked this nut out years ago instead of trying to piece together how unbelievers in hell are somehow forgiven.

The Bible teaches justification by faith, and that unrepentant sin is not forgiven. So should we.

Like19 mins

David Jay Webber Orthodox Lutheran synods are emphasizing the doctrine of humanity's objective/universal justification in Christ, and the corresponding doctrine of subjective/personal justification by faith, because these doctrines are being challenged, distorted, and rejected today. It's the same reason why St. Athanasius emphasized the doctrines of the divinity of Christ and the Trinity, and why St. Augustine emphasized the doctrines of original sin and salvation by grace alone, in their day.

To give people the benefit of the doubt, we can and should admit that when this controversy/discussion got going several years ago, it was triggered in part by certain clumsy and misleading statements that had been made in the past by a few of the would-be teachers and defenders of objective justification - such as that God looked down into hell and declared Judas and all the damned to have the status of saints. What an abysmal confusion of law and gospel that was, not to mention how far it departed from the pattern of sound words of Scripture. Whenever you are talking about souls in hell, you are speaking law in one form or another; whereas objective justification is exclusively a species of the gospel, pertaining to those for whom the gospel is intended, and to whom the gospel is offered.

But that's not the situation now. In the past few years, the doctrine of objective justification has been clarified and reiterated in a balanced and Christ-centered way, and those older improper ways of explaining it have been set aside and rejected. See in particular these two essays, for the way in which objective justification is actually taught and explained in WELS/ELS circles today:

http://azcadistrict.com/.../papers/Buchholz_2012-10.pdf

http://www.redeemerscottsdale.org/.../WebberEmmausConfere...

But the folks who understandably rejected the clumsy and misleading statements of the past, are now rejecting also these clearer and more balanced forms of teaching. This shows that the issue is not just a matter of terminological confusion and misunderstanding, but is a real doctrinal difference. And therefore the correct Biblical and Confessional doctrine needs to be set forth in response to the distortions and errors that are still out there, and that are confusing and misleading the faithful.

People need to know that Jesus is their Savior and their justifier from beginning to end, and that their righteousness before God is the righteousness that Christ won and established for the world in his death and resurrection in the stead and on behalf of the world. And people need to know that their faithful Lutheran pastors are absolutely not teaching "universal salvation without faith" - as I personally have been accused of teaching, because I preach that Jesus truly is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

Actually, Jay Webber, with his ELCA STM,
spent 50 pages rehashing the same
tired bromides of Pietism that he
pretends to deride.

WELS Discussions on Facebook - UOJ

Matthew Brunner

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