     Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 148 Registered: 1-2008 |
Rick, here are more links to my confession using Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions against those promoting the false Huberian gospel of faithless forgiveness in the Lutheran Synods. February 2014 http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=35105 November 2013 http://www.lutherquest.org/cgi-bin/discus40/discus .cgi October 2012 http://www.lutherquest.org/cgi-bin/discus40/discus .cgi January 2012 http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=4190&cpage=1#comm ents January 2008 http://www.lutherquest.org/cgi-bin/discus40/discus .cgi | ||
| Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 149 Registered: 1-2008 |
Franz, you speak as if the Roman Catholic Church accepted justification without faith while promoting justification by works. The faithful Lutheran Confessions reject justification by works and do double duty by rejecting justification without faith. My quotes show that the Lutheran Confessions reject Objective Justification's teaching that the whole world was Redeemed - freed from being under the Law - and Reconciled to God without the gracious gift of faith in Christ alone. UOJ's foundational tenets are false. “142] But righteousness is faith in the heart. Moreover, sins are redeemed by repentance, i.e., the obligation or guilt is removed, because God forgives those who repent, as it is written in Ezek. 18:21-22. Nor are we to infer from this that He forgives on account of works that follow, on account of alms; but on account of his promise He forgives those who apprehend His promise. Neither do any apprehend His promise, except those who truly believe, and by faith overcome sin and death.”BOC, Article III: Of Love and the Fulfilling of the Law. 4] In opposition to both these parties it has been unanimously taught by the other teachers of the Augsburg Confession that Christ is our righteousness not according to His divine nature alone, nor according to His human nature alone, but according to both natures; for He has redeemed, justified, and saved us from our sins as God and man, through His complete obedience; that therefore the righteousness of faith is the forgiveness of sins, reconciliation with God, and our adoption as God’s children only on account of the obedience of Christ, which through faith alone, out of pure grace, is imputed for righteousness to all true believers, and on account of it they are absolved from all their unrighteousness." http://bookofconcord.org/sd-righteousness.php The BOC condemns UOJ. In Christ, Brett Meyer | ||
| Franz Linden (Franz_mann) Senior Member Username: Franz_mann Post Number: 1898 Registered: 12-2004 |
Brett Meyer writes: Franz, you speak as if the Roman Catholic Church accepted justification without faith while promoting justification by works. In the truest sense of faith, the Roman Catholic Church did accept justification without faith. Faith is nothing more than a work to the papists, as are the sacraments, prayers, penance, and hearing God's Word. Their whole theology is work based. They know nothing of the faith of which Holy Scripture speaks, and neither do you. The faithful Lutheran Confessions reject justification by works and do double duty by rejecting justification without faith. This is nothing more than you forcing your heresy on the Lutheran Confessions. As faithful as the Lutheran Confessors were, they were still fallible. They did not write with the knowledge of every possible heresy which would arise. But there are plenty of examples of Luther, Chemnitz, and others who wrote about forgiveness and justification being an objective reality for the whole world. You have been bamboozled by your own intellect and by whomever is your spiritual advisor. The Scriptures say, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them." You can take as many quotes out of context as you want, post them in bold, and spew your heresy on a thousand different forums, but you still cannot silence what the Word of God has declared. Can you live with that, Mr. Meyer? Franz | ||
| George Mueller (Mueller) Senior Member Username: Mueller Post Number: 1321 Registered: 11-2012 |
"The very fact that one is justified by faith apart from works proves that the justification must be a reality, for the faith of which Holy Scripture speaks is not a belief in anything that is not true."This sums it up nicely. There can be no justification by faith alone apart from objective justification. | ||
| Rev. David R. Boisclair (Drboisclair) Intermediate Member Username: Drboisclair Post Number: 491 Registered: 1-2002 |
Brett, if the Book of Concord condemned Universal Objective Justification, why didn't ELDoNA cite the passage in which it does so? It would be a slam dunk then, wouldn't it? The biggest news at the end of the day is that ELDoNA cannot supply biblical or confessional evidence to support its rejection of UOJ. | ||
| Rev. David R. Boisclair (Drboisclair) Intermediate Member Username: Drboisclair Post Number: 492 Registered: 1-2002 |
Another point to be made as it has been ad nauseam is that those of us who believe, teach, and confess the biblical doctrine of Objective Justification most certainly do not deny Justification by Faith. It is a lie and slander to say that we do. The false assumption of those who so accuse us is that the doctrine of Objective Justification and the doctrine of Justification by Faith each mutually exclude the other. That is a falsehood. Brett, you operate under the assumption that anything that either the Scriptures or the Confessions affirm about Justification by Faith EXCLUDES Objective Justification. That is why you constantly post the quotations from the Confessions that you do. Another allegation that is a lie is that we who teach the biblical doctrine of Objective Justification are Enthusiasts, who deny that people come to faith and receive God's Justification in Christ through the means of grace. They are bearing false witness against us who accuse us of rejecting Justification by Faith alone and Enthusiasm. | ||
| Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 150 Registered: 1-2008 |
Franz/Rev. Boisclair, the doctrine of UOJ teaches that God is reconciled to the whole unbelieving world. That God has redeemed the whole unbelieving world from under the Law and He has declared the whole unbelieving world to be justified and righteous. The BOC and Luther's Galatians quotes above reject that teaching by declaring God is solely reconciled by and through the gracious gift of faith in Christ alone. That only believers are redeemed - no longer under the Law but stand in God's grace. As can be clearly read in our previous discussions the doctrine of UOJ is chock-a-block full of contradictions to Scripture and the Confessions - and even itself. George Mueller (Mueller) Senior Member Username: Mueller Post Number: 1059 Registered: 11-2012 Posted on Monday, November 11, 2013 - 10:19am: _______________ God justifies no one outside of his grace. The whole world has been justified by God's grace. Nobody but a believer stands in God's grace. Does this help?" http://www.lutherquest.org/cgi-bin/discus40/show.c gi?tpc=110109&post=277290#POST277290 For those wanting to know more about what is really taught in the false gospel of UOJ I recommend the recent discussion on Lutherquest here http://www.lutherquest.org/discus40/messages/11010 9/108193.html | ||
| Rev. David R. Boisclair (Drboisclair) Intermediate Member Username: Drboisclair Post Number: 493 Registered: 1-2002 |
Brett, I don't think that even ELDoNA or Greg Jackson would agree with you in saying that God is not reconcilied to the whole world in the work of Christ. Their concern is about Justification. Your statement is so obviously false and unbiblical that it causes me to wonder very seriously if you are a Christian. This statement of yours is an anti-Gospel, which pleases the prince of hell. Even R.C.H. Lenski believed that God was reconciled to the whole world through Christ! It is unbelievable that one who confesses Christ would post something as manifestly evil as this! | ||
| Rev. David R. Boisclair (Drboisclair) Intermediate Member Username: Drboisclair Post Number: 494 Registered: 1-2002 |
Another point: GOD IS NOT RECONCILED TO THE WORLD FOR THE SAKE OF FAITH BUT FOR THE SAKE OF THE VICARIOUS SATISFACTION OF CHRIST! | ||
| Franz Linden (Franz_mann) Senior Member Username: Franz_mann Post Number: 1899 Registered: 12-2004 |
Brett Meyer writes: Franz/Rev. Boisclair, the doctrine of UOJ teaches that God is reconciled to the whole unbelieving world. That God has redeemed the whole unbelieving world from under the Law and He has declared the whole unbelieving world to be justified and righteous. Exactly! And that is precisely what God's Word says. Romans 3:23-25 - For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by His blood, to be received by faith. Your heresy, Mr. Meyer, glosses over verses 23 and 24 and the first part of verse 25, and focuses on the one phrase "to be received by faith." But it's in the very parts you would gloss over that universal objective justification is clearly and loudly proclaimed. All have sinned and are justified by God's grace through the redemption that is in Christ. God did this when He made Christ the propitiation - the acceptable payment - by the shedding of Christ's blood. Now, if the payment is acceptable to God for the redemption of all who sinned, how is it that you say that God has not justified all? Did God welch on the deal? Is He some divine deadbeat that only accepts the payment but doesn't cancel the debt? What kind of thug do you take God to be? We, on the other hand, don't deny that faith is the only way to receive, subjectively, the redemption and the grace of God, but we hold to the first part of what Paul says in these verses precisely because that is what faith receives. Unless it receives this objective fact that God has justified the "all" of verse 23 through the redemption that is in Christ, there is nothing for faith to believe. Franz | ||
| Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 151 Registered: 1-2008 |
Rev. Boisclair is correct that the doctrine of UOJ teaches the whole unbelieving world has been reconciled with God the Father by Christ's atonement, outside of the Means of Grace and without them being given the gracious gift of faith in Christ. According to the BOC that reconciliation makes the unbelieving world accounted by God to be righteous and His children. Scripture teaches against this doctrine here: Romans 8:9, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." The BOC faithfully confirms this Scriptural teaching here: 86] But since we receive remission of sins and the Holy Ghost by faith alone, faith alone justifies, because those reconciled are accounted righteous and children of God, not on account of their own purity, but through mercy for Christ's sake, provided only they by faith apprehend this mercy." http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justificati on.php Therefore the unbelieving world is not reconciled because they do not have the Spirit of Christ and are not children of God. Christ is obtained as Mediator and Propitiation solely through the gracious gift of faith in Christ alone worked by and through the Means of Grace – Word and Sacraments. Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; And again, the BOC thoroughly rejects UOJ's basic tenet of the unbelieving world being reconciled to God by the merits of Christ without the Means of Grace working faith: BOC, "The wrath of God cannot be appeased if we set against it our own works, <b>because Christ has been set forth as a Propitiator, so that for His sake, the Father may become reconciled to us.But Christ is not apprehended as a Mediator except by faith. Therefore, by faith alone we obtain remission of sins, when we comfort our hearts with confidence in the mercy promised for 81] Christ's sake. Likewise Paul, Rom. 5:2, says: By whom also we have access, and adds, by faith. Thus, therefore, we are reconciled to the Father, and receive remission of sins when we are comforted with confidence in the mercy promised for Christ's sake. The adversaries regard Christ as Mediator and Propitiator for this reason, namely, that He has merited the habit of love; they do not urge us to use Him now as Mediator, but, as though Christ were altogether buried, they imagine that we have access through our own works, and, through these, merit this habit, and afterwards, by this love, come to God. Is not this to bury Christ altogether, and to take away the entire doctrine of faith?Paul on the contrary, teaches that we have access, i.e., reconciliation, through Christ. And to show how this occurs, he adds that we have access by faith. By faith, therefore, for Christ's sake, we receive remission of sins. We cannot set our own love and our own works over against God's wrath." BOC, "113] But faith, properly so called, is that which assents to the promise [is when my heart, and the Holy Ghost in the heart, says: The promise of God is true and certain]. Of 114]this faith Scripture speaks. And because it receives the remission of sins, and reconciles us to God, by this faith we are [like Abraham] accounted righteous for Christ's sake before we love and do the works of the Law, although love necessarily follows." http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justificati on.php Rev. Boisclair faithfully defends the false gospel of UOJ as he violently opposes the Scriptural teaching that only those whom God has called to faith in Christ are reconciled to God – redeemed from under the Law to live under God’s grace, being regenerated, adopted as God’s children, justified (forgiven all sin), righteous in Christ and saved eternally. In Christ, Brett Meyer | ||
| Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 152 Registered: 1-2008 |
Franz, the larger section of Romans 3 is the following: 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; You/OJ, disregard and reject the perspicuity of verse 22 which fronts your supposed faithless absolution of the unbelieving world's sins: "the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:" Christ's righteousness for the forgiveness of sins, the apprehension of Christ as Mediator and Propitiation is solely through the gracious gift of faith in Christ alone. Verse 25 teaches Christ as Propitiator through faith in Him alone. It's time that those who teach, promote and defend the false gospel of UOJ are publicly held accountable for their abuse of God's Word. UOJ is 100% contrary to God's Word, Christ and the Chief Article of Christian doctrine. In Christ, Brett Meyer | ||
| Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 153 Registered: 1-2008 |
Rev. Boisclair, you claim that ELDONA does not agree with my contention that the entire unbelieving world is not reconciled to God in the work of Christ. Here is a quote from ELDONA's statement on Justification: Thesis 28 The reconciliation/justification of the world is already accomplished in Christ in this sense: that what God needs in order to consider each sinner righteous - the exchange of righteousness for sin in Christ - is accomplished; yet, unless the sinner is reconciled to God/justified by God through trust in the righteousness of Christ (cf. 2 Cor. 5), he is not indeed reconciled. Since some are not reconciled/justified, it cannot be said that all are reconciled/justified. http://eldona.org/ELDoNA/Papers_files/Justificatio n_2013.pdf I agree fully with this confession which is faithful to the quotes from Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions I provided above and which opposes the false gospel of UOJ which the Lutheran Synods have foistered upon the clergy in Sem and laity in the pews. In Christ, Brett Meyer | ||
| George Mueller (Mueller) Senior Member Username: Mueller Post Number: 1322 Registered: 11-2012 |
Brett, if you learn to make a threefold distinction you will understand what we are saying and why our teaching is sound. The distinction is threefold: a) forgiveness obtained; b) forgiveness bestowed; c) forgiveness received. Baptists, Methodists, and Calvinists all have a deficient understanding of the means of grace so they go straight from a to c without b. What this requires of the believer is that he leap back to the cross somehow so as to make that forgiveness his own. Faith automatically becomes an act. Absent any means of grace, faith becomes its own means, and its activity or evidence of the same becomes its object. This is called fideism. The Lutherans operate with a sound understanding of the means of grace. The forgiveness obtained on Calvary is bestowed in the gospel and sacraments. What is the message of this gospel? This is the critical issue. The message is your sins are forgiven for Christ's sake. The message is not that your sins will be forgiven if you fulfill the requirement of believing. If that's what you think you are quite confused. The very nature of the gospel is that it cannot be received except through faith. The very nature of the gospel is that it must be believed if it is to benefit the individual. The gospel calls for faith. The gospel requires faith. The gospel elicits the faith that it requires. The gospel is not a message about something that exists somewhere that will become yours after you fulfill your side of the deal by believing it. The gospel is the message that your sins are forgiven for Christ's sake and that righteousness and eternal life are given to you for Christ's sake. You either believe it and receive it or you don't believe it and do not have it. You have heard us say many times that faith is necessary. You know that we reject the notion that anyone anywhere receives the forgiveness of sins apart from faith. We confess justification by faith alone. You must keep this in mind or you will not understand what we are teaching. Learn to make the threefold distinction. | ||
| Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 154 Registered: 1-2008 |
Franz states above, "Romans 3:23-25 - For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by His blood, to be received by faith. Your heresy, Mr. Meyer, glosses over verses 23 and 24 and the first part of verse 25, and focuses on the one phrase "to be received by faith." But it's in the very parts you would gloss over that universal objective justification is clearly and loudly proclaimed. All have sinned and are justified by God's grace through the redemption that is in Christ. God did this when He made Christ the propitiation - the acceptable payment - by the shedding of Christ's blood." The Christian Book of Concord rejects your defense of the false gospel of UOJ and your abuse of Romans 3:25 here: (81])Paul on the contrary, teaches that we have access, i.e., reconciliation, through Christ. And to show how this occurs, he adds that we have access by faith. By faith, therefore, for Christ's sake, we receive remission of sins. We cannot set our own love and our own works over against God's wrath. 82] Secondly. It is certain that sins are forgiven for the sake of Christ, as Propitiator, Rom. 3:25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation. Moreover, Paul adds: through faith. Therefore this Propitiator thus benefits us, when by faith we apprehend the mercy promised in Him, and set it against the wrath and judgment of God. And to the same effect it is written, Heb. 4:14,16: Seeing, then, that we have a great High Priest, etc., let us therefore come with confidence. For the Apostle bids us come to God, not with confidence in our own merits, but with confidence in Christ as a High Priest; therefore he requires faith. http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justificati on.php NOTE: God forgives sins, justifies, for the sake of Christ as Propitiator through faith in Christ alone. This is the Confessional explanation of Romans 3:25. Christ is the world's propitiation through faith in Christ alone - and not before and without faith as UOJ claims. In Christ, Brett Meyer | ||
| Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 155 Registered: 1-2008 |
Mr. Mueller, your confession is faithful to the false gospel of UOJ as it is taught and defended in it's various versions within the Lutheran Synods and the doctrines of the Seventh Day Adventists. You advance UOJ's war with the Holy Spirit's faith which clings to Christ alone. UOJ wars with Christ by calling faith, Christ's righteousness, a work of man if solely by faith alone God forgives sin, reconciles and saves. Yet that is the Gospel taught in Scripture and faithfully explained in the BOC. UOJ is 100% contrary to Scripture and the BOC: Here are additional foundational tenets of UOJ which Scripture rejects: UOJ: the whole unbelieving world has been declared righteous by God’s omnipotent and divine verdict Scripture: Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: UOJ: the whole unbelieving world was absolved off all sin, debt canceled, all sins forgiven by God’s grace without faith Scripture: Romans 5:2, “By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. UOJ: God has reconciled Himself to the unbelieving world, He is at peace with them and the bright rays of His mercy now shine upon them Scripture: Romans 5:1, “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: UOJ: Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world such that He now stands in the place of the whole world and they are justified and righteous in God’s perfect sight and by his omnipotent will and verdict Scripture: Romans 3:25, “Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;” UOJ: the whole unbelieving world has been declared forgiven by grace not by faith Scripture: Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, UOJ: because of the atonement of Christ, Christ’s payment for the world’s sins, God has canceled the debt of the unbelieving world. The world’s sins were removed from them and laid upon Christ so that the world is now sinless and guiltless. Scripture: John 8:24, “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” UOJ: the Sacraments of Baptism and Holy Communion impart the forgiveness of sins regardless of the lack of faith in the individual receiving Christ’s body and blood. Scripture: 1 Corinthians 11:29, “For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.” UOJ: forgiveness has to come before faith, otherwise faith would have nothing to cling to Scripture: Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. UOJ: the whole unbelieving world has been absolved of all sin - justified Scripture: Matthew 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. UOJ: individuals who are burdened with doubt about their forgiveness should not turn to their faith for comfort, that would be showing faith in thier faith. They should turn to God’s declaration that they were justified and righteous in His sight before they ever believed, even if they never believed. Scripture: 2 Corinthians 13:5, “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?” UOJ: the object of faith is God’s declaration that the whole world of unbelievers were declared justified, righteous and worthy of eternal life Scripture: The object of the Holy Spirit’s faith is Christ alone. John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. UOJ: the whole unbelieving world has been reconciled to God Scripture: Scripture teaches that those reconciled to God are children of God. Unbelievers are not children of God. Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. UOJ: the whole unbelieving world is saved - those who do not believe their debt has been canceled are not saved. Christ died and paid for all sins including the sin of unbelief – all sins are forgiven – those who do not believe they were forgiven for not believing will go to Hell for not believing they were forgiven for not believing. Scripture: James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. In Christ, Brett Meyer | ||
| George Mueller (Mueller) Senior Member Username: Mueller Post Number: 1323 Registered: 11-2012 |
Brett, the fact that you do not respond to any of the arguments that any of us make and do not even attempt to engage us in a reasonable and substantive discussion of the issues suggests that you don't want to have a conversation. It appears that you aren't capable of engaging in a debate on this subject. If I'm wrong, show me. Try to respond to my last post and address the difference between bestowing and receiving. Answer one simple question: Does the gospel bestow the forgiveness of sins? Yes or no. | ||
| Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 156 Registered: 1-2008 |
Mr. Mueller, your statements at 3:52pm are as convoluted and contradictory as your quote I provided at 1:55am above. I was addressing your perversion of the Holy Spirit's faith. You ask, "Does the gospel bestow the forgiveness of sins? Yes or no." No. The Gospel is the promise of reconciliation, redemption, the forgiveness of sins (justification), regeneration, the adoption of sons, God's grace and eternal life. Christian Book of Concord - Gospel promise: 13] For faith justifies, not for this cause and reason that it is so good a work and so fair a virtue, but because it lays hold of and accepts the merit of Christ in the promise of the holy Gospel; for this must be applied and appropriated to us by faith, if we are to be justified thereby.” http://www.bookofconcord.org/sd-righteousness.php (80])Therefore, by faith alone we obtain remission of sins, when we comfort our hearts with confidence in the mercy promised for 81] Christ's sake. Likewise Paul, Rom. 5:2, says: By whom also we have access, and adds, by faith. Thus, therefore, we are reconciled to the Father, and receive remission of sins when we are comforted with confidence in the mercy promised for Christ's sake. 86] But since we receive remission of sins and the Holy Ghost by faith alone, faith alone justifies, because those reconciled are accounted righteous and children of God, not on account of their own purity, but through mercy for Christ's sake, provided only they by faith apprehend this mercy. Accordingly, Scripture testifies that by faith we are accounted righteous, Rom. 3:26.</b> We, therefore, will add testimonies which clearly declare that faith is that very righteousness by which we are accounted righteous before God, namely, not because it is a work that is in itself worthy, but because it receives the promise by which God has promised that for Christ's sake He wishes to be propitious to those believing in Him, or because He knows that Christ of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption, 1 Cor. 1:30. 113] But faith, properly so called, is that which assents to the promise [is when my heart, and the Holy Ghost in the heart, says: the promise of God is true and certain]. Of 114] this faith Scripture speaks. And because it receives the remission of sins, and reconciles us to God, by this faith we are [like Abraham] accounted righteous for Christ's sake before we love and do the works of the Law, although love necessarily follows. 115]Nor, indeed, is this faith an idle knowledge, neither can it coexist with mortal sin, but it is a work of the Holy Ghost, whereby we are freed from death, and terrified minds are encouraged and quickened. 116] http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justificati on.php You ask me to address the difference between bestowing and receiving in regards to God's divine verdict of absolution upon the entire unbelieving world. I can tell you that whatever God bestows is received by that upon which it is bestowed. UOJ states otherwise and makes a perverse mockery out of God's ominipotence. UOJ is the ultimate blasphemy upon the Triune God. In Christ, Brett Meyer | ||
| David Breitenfeld (Dbreitenfeld) Advanced Member Username: Dbreitenfeld Post Number: 841 Registered: 10-2004 |
"UOJ is 100% contrary to Scripture and the BOC: " No it does NOT. This is what was quoted,[color black, by original poster. Color blue by me] "4] In opposition to both these parties it has been unanimously taught by the other teachers of the Augsburg Confession thatChrist is our righteousness not according to His divine nature alone, nor according to His human nature alone, but according to both natures; for He has redeemed, justified, and saved us from our sins as God and man, through His complete obedience; that therefore the righteousness of faith is the forgiveness of sins, reconciliation with God, and our adoption as God’s children only on account of the obedience of Christ, which through faith alone, out of pure grace, is imputed for righteousness to all true believers, and on account of it they are absolved from all their unrighteousness." http://bookofconcord.org/sd-righteousness.php " but noticed the Blue Words. It is before the word therefore. Also note "both natures. This is important which helps to know that these items are what the conclusion is base upon. These this is describing the works God did that are complete for His sake, on our behalf. God's work is COMPLETE. From this complete work of God, Therefore we have righteousness, forgiveness of sins, reconciliation, and adoption: all this is given to us by faith, which the Holy Spirit gives. Was the human nature of Jesus justified too, or was it not justified? Christ is our justification, it had to be complete in order for him to be our substitute. If our justification was not completed by God, then we fall into having to the false teaching, that we have to do something to obtain it: RC, Reformed, and all the worlds religions. | ||
| Rev. David R. Boisclair (Drboisclair) Intermediate Member Username: Drboisclair Post Number: 495 Registered: 1-2002 |
Brett, well I guess that ELDoNA's doctrine is even worse than I thought! According to 2 Cor. 5:18-21 God reconciled the world to Himself. Those who deny that deny the Word of God. I appreciate what you are doing, Brett! You are making it clear to us and many others how heterodox ELDoNA is as well as all who subscribe to their diabolical theses. All of what they and the others that agree with them say about our doctrine is a lie, and all within their fellowship should heed the scriptural mandate "to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them" (Romans 16:17). Another appropriate Word of God is: "Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing" (2 Cor. 6:17). | ||
| Franz Linden (Franz_mann) Senior Member Username: Franz_mann Post Number: 1900 Registered: 12-2004 |
Brett Meyer writes: You ask, "Does the gospel bestow the forgiveness of sins? Yes or no." No. The Gospel is the promise of reconciliation, redemption, the forgiveness of sins (justification), regeneration, the adoption of sons, God's grace and eternal life. This is full blown Calvinism. You have no understanding of Lutheran theology at all, Mr. Meyer. To deny that the Gospel, i.e. the means of grace, bestows forgiveness is precisely what Calvin and all the Reformed churches teach. Follow your heresy to its natural conclusion and declare your faith to be the object of itself. Franz | ||
| David Breitenfeld (Dbreitenfeld) Advanced Member Username: Dbreitenfeld Post Number: 842 Registered: 10-2004 |
I would say that the error of rejecting UOJ is because people are thinking that justification (Work of God) is applied and effects everyone the same way as Adam's sins being passed on to everyone, whether a person believes it or not, but that is NOT how this works. "Rom 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 5:16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification." By thinking UOJ is applied and effects everyone in the same way Adam's trespassing of sin is applied and effects everyone, it leads to salvation by mans work, ie, the world religions teachings and thinking. Faith is the ways and means of God giving this to a person. But faith used by those who reject UOJ don't understand this and is using faith as a "work" man has to do to obtain the works God completed, as though man must complete this work. Oh, they will use the word faith as trusting, but it is a disguised form of work righteousness. Examples Brett, your first 5 UOJ refute proof texts uses the words: "by faith", and "through faith." This is the way God says His works have to be obtained- noticed it does not say "by works" or "through works" as another means. "Brett: " UOJ: the Sacraments of Baptism and Holy Communion impart the forgiveness of sins regardless of the lack of faith in the individual receiving Christ’s body and blood. Scripture: 1 Corinthians 11:29, “For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.” "}[For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.] This is the BEST proof of UOJ, not a text to refute UOJ. First, Paul is saying the body is Christ's and the blood is Christs, and taking it without discerning the body, ["For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves." you left of the important part, for it shows proper formation: 1. The factual complete work of God through Christ as His action. 2. all this is ascertained by faith. Noticed that if a person does not believe the true body and blood of Christ is present, he brings judgement on himself? Why would he bring the wrath of God upon himself if it wasn't happening? Also include 1Co 10:16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? Paul is expecting a "yes" answer from the hears. Because if a person says, "no." it is still the true body and blood of Christ. Whether you believe nor not believe does NOT complete the works of God. God's works are complete beforehand, that way NO ONE can boast about doing something. "Brett:"UOJ: the whole unbelieving world has been reconciled to God Scripture: Scripture teaches that those reconciled to God are children of God. Unbelievers are not children of God. Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. " "Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Rom 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! Rom 5:10 For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!" Verse 8, is God's work. The rest is results of His work, which again is given by faith. Christ's work was complete, was it not? This still follows the formation: God does His work and completes it. Whether you believe nor not believe does NOT complete the works of God. God's works are complete. It takes faith to have this given to you, which is also God's work given to a person. Here is a test. God demonstrates his love for you by sending His only Son to die on the cross to take away all your sins, your sins are forgiven. God demonstrates his love for you by sending His only Son to die on the cross to take away all your sins,your sins are forgiven, if you give your life to him. Which one is OJ and which one is not OJ? | ||
| Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 157 Registered: 1-2008 |
Franz states, "This is full blown Calvinism. You have no understanding of Lutheran theology at all, Mr. Meyer. To deny that the Gospel, i.e. the means of grace, bestows forgiveness is precisely what Calvin and all the Reformed churches teach." The BOC: 33] Thus we have the entire Sacrament, both as to what it is in itself and as to what it brings and profits. Now we must also see who is the person that receives this power and benefit. That is answered briefly, as we said above of Baptism and often elsewhere: Whoever believes it has what the words declare and bring. For they are not spoken or proclaimed to stone and wood, but to those who hear them, to whom He says: 34]Take and eat, etc. And because He offers and promises forgiveness of sin, it cannot be received otherwise than by faith. This faith He Himself demands in the Word when He says: Given and shed for you. As if He said: For this reason I give it, and bid you eat and drink, that you may claim it as yours and enjoy it. 35] Whoever now accepts these words, and believes that what they declare is true, has it. But whoever does not believe it has nothing, as he allows it to be offered to him in vain, and refuses to enjoy such a saving good. The treasure, indeed, is opened and placed at every one's door, yea, upon his table, but it is necessary that you also claim it, and confidently view it as the words suggest to you 36] This, now, is the entire Christian preparation for receiving this Sacrament worthily. For since this treasure is entirely presented in the words, it cannot be apprehended and appropriated in any other way than with the heart. For such a gift and eternal treasure cannot be seized with the fist. http://www.bookofconcord.org/lc-7-sacrament.php The false gospel of UOJ continues to teach contrary to Scripture and the Confessions. The Means of Grace graciously work Godly contrition and faith in Christ alone. The Sacrament of Holy Communion bestows the forgiveness of sins upon all those who receive Christ's body and blood in faith. All those who receive the Sacrament without faith are not forgiven, as the doctrine of UOJ teaches, but they are condemned - 1 Cor. 11:29, For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. Again, Christ is Mediator and Propitiation through the gracious gift of faith in Christ alone. In Christ, Brett Meyer | ||
| Franz Linden (Franz_mann) Senior Member Username: Franz_mann Post Number: 1901 Registered: 12-2004 |
Brett Meyer writes: Thus we have the entire Sacrament, both as to what it is in itself and as to what it brings and profits. Now we must also see who is the person that receives this power and benefit. That is answered briefly, as we said above of Baptism and often elsewhere: Whoever believes it has WHAT THE WORDS DECLARE AND BRING. Check, and mate, Mr. Meyer. Your quotation proves you wrong. The words "bring" something. What do they bring except the forgiveness of sins. Now if they bring the forgiveness of sins, surely the forgiveness of sins must already be an objective reality. You deniers of universal objective justification are either complete dunces or are so smart that you cannot understand simple statements. Franz | ||
| Brett Meyer (Brett_meyer) Member Username: Brett_meyer Post Number: 158 Registered: 1-2008 |
That's a false move Franz. Forgiveness is promised by God to all those who He graciously gives the gift of faith in Christ alone through the Means of Grace. The false gospel of UOJ rejects God's promise and teaches God has already absolved the whole unbelieving world even though they have not apprehended Christ as Mediator and Propitiation through faith. The rationalism of UOJ's doctrine is highlighted when you state, "Now if they bring the forgiveness of sins, surely the forgiveness of sins must already be an objective reality."'Surely...must already be...reality' is a rational assumption that has no foundation in Scripture or the Lutheran Confessions since men are only acceptable to God through the gracious gift of faith - unbelievers remain unaccepted and condemned. 71] "but we maintain this, that properly and truly, by faith itself, we are for Christ's sake accounted righteous, or are acceptable to God. And because "to be justified" means that out of unjust men just men are made, or born again, it means also that they are pronounced or accounted just. For Scripture speaks in both ways. [The term "to be justified" is used in two ways: to denote, being converted or regenerated; again, being accounted righteous. Accordingly we wish first to show this, that faith alone makes of an unjust, a just man, i.e., receives remission of sins". http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_4_justificati on.php John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. but he that believeth not is condemned already And note: they are not condemned for not believing in the supposed divine declaration that they are forgiven and righteous in Christ - but they are condemned for not believing in the name of the Son of God. In Christ, Brett Meyer |
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| They are all, "Let's quote Pieper again!" never "Let's study Luther for once, especially his Galatians Commentary!" |